RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-14-2017, 02:44 PM   #1
mdshope
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
Max Fifth Wheel Advice

Need some help. The more I dig into this the more lost I become. Salesmen at dealers seem to be all over the place as well. I am trying to find out what is the heaviest fifth wheel and pin weight I can handle. I have a 2012 F250 crew cab 4X4 King Ranch with the 6.7L turbo diesel and 3.55 rear axel. I printed the 2012 towing guidlines for Ford and what I found is the GVW is 10,000 and the rear axel has a RGAW of 6,100 the overall GCVW is 23,500 and it has a max fifth wheel tow weight of 15,200. I wish it was as easy as saying my loaded fifth wheel has to be under 15,200 but it isn't. My wife and I are looking at a Keystone Montana 3811MS with the legacy package and several of the Forest River Cardinals. Any direction on king pin weight and loaded fifth wheel weight for my vehicle would be great. Also curious to see what other similar trucks are towing.
__________________

mdshope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 03:17 PM   #2
Stripit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home Prescott, Az
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via AIM to Stripit Send a message via MSN to Stripit Send a message via Yahoo to Stripit
I no longer have the scales I used to have when I weighed RV's and trucks, but normally a full size pickup truck had about 3,000lbs rolling on the rear tires without anything in the bed, other than the hitch. Your showing a 6,100lb max rear axle leaving around 3,000 lbs max to be placed into the bed or hitch. Using the normal 20% of the gross weight a 5th wheel trailer will weigh, that will put you at maxish 15,000lb trailer. But those guesstimates of 20% will become the pin are not always accurate, I've seen them well over 30% many run 25% so without actually driving over scales to see exactly what your truck weighs front axle and rear axle your guessing just like I'm doing now. Many trucks are towing overloaded, and continue to roll down the road without major issues, but if your wanting to stay within the limits set by either the tire manufacturer, or the truck mfg, you need to know the real numbers. Scales will show you what your dealing with and then you get to decide how you and your family will proceed. Just my .02 cents worth.
__________________

__________________
2013 Tiffin Allegro 34 QFA
2015 Cadillac SRX (towed)
2019 Tesla Model X
1991 Avanti Conv
Stripit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 04:08 PM   #3
mdshope
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
I totally forgot to add this to my post I took my truck to a CAT scale with a full tank of diesel total weight was 8060 with me in the cab front axel 4800 and rear axel 3260 I do have a fiber glass cover on my truck bed that would be removed.
mdshope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 05:40 PM   #4
Stripit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home Prescott, Az
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via AIM to Stripit Send a message via MSN to Stripit Send a message via Yahoo to Stripit
Well I was pretty close in the 3,000lbs on the rear, the shame is your truck is probably overloaded with the trailer your already pulling. But many others are too. I went with the overkill, bought a International Medium Duty truck to tow with, was not overloaded on any number, but that truck is not for everyone. Don't know the real weights of the rv your thinking of moving up to. List the weights of that trailer and we can see where your at.
__________________
2013 Tiffin Allegro 34 QFA
2015 Cadillac SRX (towed)
2019 Tesla Model X
1991 Avanti Conv
Stripit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:41 PM   #5
wingnut60
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where we park it
Posts: 2,785
You have a max weight available on the rear axle of the capacity of the two rear tires--that should be around 7500lbs. Any combo of truck weight and pin weight OVER the capacity (also NEAR the capacity) is unsafe. I don't care how much you run over the factory ratings, but you should not overload the tires.
With the rear axle weight you listed, and subtracting 150lbs for removing the cap, you will have about 4000-4100lbs for a pin weight. This does not take into account any firewood, tools, dogs, FAMILY, etc you might carry--all of which will lower the number available for the pin weight.
Joe
__________________
2016 Tiffin 40 QBH
2015 38RSSA, traded
2005 TK3 #1869, 10 yrs of memories,
2017 F450 KR--one more Ford is it
2009 F450 4x4-died; 2010 F450-retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:54 PM   #6
Stripit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home Prescott, Az
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via AIM to Stripit Send a message via MSN to Stripit Send a message via Yahoo to Stripit
He wrote: I printed the 2012 towing guidlines for Ford and what I found is the GVW is 10,000 and the rear axel has a RGAW of 6,100

Then he wrote: I took my truck to a CAT scale with a full tank of diesel total weight was 8060 with me in the cab front axel 4800 and rear axel 3260

Removing the cap that weighs?? should leave him about 3,000 lbs before he meets the rear gross rating of 6,100. The tires may or may not exceed that number without knowing what tires are on the truck.

He shows: GVW is 10,000 and the truck at the scales was already 8060lbs. No matter how you look at it this truck will be overloaded by the numbers he has given towing this trailer. Will the truck tow and move the load, sure, will it be within the stated max weight numbers, no. Something will be over the trucks manufacturers ratings.
__________________
2013 Tiffin Allegro 34 QFA
2015 Cadillac SRX (towed)
2019 Tesla Model X
1991 Avanti Conv
Stripit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:22 PM   #7
wingnut60
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where we park it
Posts: 2,785
That's more correct than my figures. But I made the assumption he is going to be over no matter what and wanted to emphasize the tire capacity.
If he had just gotten the 350, he'd have a GVWR of 11400 to help somewhat.
__________________
2016 Tiffin 40 QBH
2015 38RSSA, traded
2005 TK3 #1869, 10 yrs of memories,
2017 F450 KR--one more Ford is it
2009 F450 4x4-died; 2010 F450-retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:41 PM   #8
mdshope
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
Are there modifications you can do to the existing truck that it to legally do more?
mdshope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 08:17 PM   #9
wingnut60
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where we park it
Posts: 2,785
No, factory designs/assigns ratings, not possible to change. I believe the 250 has identical parts to the 350--not much difference, if any, just rated lower for insurance purposes mostly. 10000lbs is a cutoff for class change. Much discussion on truck forums about 250/350 similiarities/part numbers.
Joe
__________________
2016 Tiffin 40 QBH
2015 38RSSA, traded
2005 TK3 #1869, 10 yrs of memories,
2017 F450 KR--one more Ford is it
2009 F450 4x4-died; 2010 F450-retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 09:07 PM   #10
Stripit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home Prescott, Az
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via AIM to Stripit Send a message via MSN to Stripit Send a message via Yahoo to Stripit
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshope View Post
Are there modifications you can do to the existing truck that it to legally do more?
No, not legally will you get to change the manufacturers weight tags. You can and I have seen folks modify the truck to pull, carry and stop more than the truck was originally designed to do. Have seen removal of the standard wheels and tires and upgraded to 19.5 wheels and tires that support more weight. Seen added leaf springs, helper springs and air bags to help lift the rear when weights are applied and make the truck ride level. Seen changing rear axle ratios for more pulling power. Seen larger brakes added for better stopping, larger injectors and intakes for more power, all changing the way the truck was built. Some folks just go buy a different truck and skip all the added work and stuff that might make it harder to sell when the time comes. With all the add ons, the tag in the door still reads what it was built with.
__________________
2013 Tiffin Allegro 34 QFA
2015 Cadillac SRX (towed)
2019 Tesla Model X
1991 Avanti Conv
Stripit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 10:07 PM   #11
wingnut60
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where we park it
Posts: 2,785
Amen to that.
__________________
2016 Tiffin 40 QBH
2015 38RSSA, traded
2005 TK3 #1869, 10 yrs of memories,
2017 F450 KR--one more Ford is it
2009 F450 4x4-died; 2010 F450-retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 01:00 PM   #12
mdshope
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
I would like your opinion on this. I was looking on the Ford Forum and saw this “there is no real difference between the F250 and F350 except 2” bigger rear blocks. When looking at towing a fifth wheel the most important things are to not exceed your front and rear axel GAWR, exceed your tires weight rating and your overall GCVWR” with that said I put together these numbers and want the forums thoughts.
My trucks front GAWR is 5600 lbs and rear GAWR is 6100 lbs my overall GCVWR is 23,500 lbs. My truck at the scales was 8060 with a front weight of 4800 and rear weight of 3260. Add a 100 lbs by taking off my hard shell and adding the fifth wheel hitch I would put my loaded truck numbers very close to 8160 with a front of 4800 and a rear 3360. The fifth wheel we are looking at is the Montana 3811MS it has a dry weight of 13400 and a pin weight of 2705 I know from weighing our current RV we have about 1200 lbs in cargo, gear and water when we travel on longer trips so that would put the fifth wheel at a loaded weight of 14600. When towing the fifth wheel I would think my rear weight would be 6065 which is under the GAWR on the door sticker of 6100 the overall GCVWR when towing would be 22,760 which is under the trucks 23,500 GCVWR the fifth wheel loaded would be 14600 which is under the 15200 that is listed as the max fifth wheel weight listed in the Ford 2012 tow guide. I am pretty sure the 6.7L diesel and the transmission in the truck is meant to do heavy duty work.
My question is this sound logic or am I just manipulating numbers to get the outcome I am looking for. I am pretty sure I will need to add air bags to the rear to help with squat other than should I be good or am I just dreaming…..
mdshope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 03:48 PM   #13
Stripit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home Prescott, Az
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via AIM to Stripit Send a message via MSN to Stripit Send a message via Yahoo to Stripit
>>The fifth wheel we are looking at is the Montana 3811MS it has a dry weight of 13400 and a pin weight of 2705 <<
It has been said many times the numbers posted by the sales team/manufacturer are wrong in the real world. Sometimes a little, sometimes a LOT! like thousands of pounds wrong without your toothpaste tube in the new rig. As we said before, yes you can hook up and tow your new trailer. Will one of a few of the magic numbers be over, maybe, will it make it unsafe to tow? probably not but without having real numbers it is still a guessing game. Thousands of F250/2500 series pick up trucks are out there towing and many are over the numbers somewhere. You don't see broken busted trucks scattered all along the highway. Having a larger capacity safety margin is what many of those truck owners move up to but not all. I can't say you will not be the one with problems, I always tried to lean to the side of more than less capacity.
__________________
2013 Tiffin Allegro 34 QFA
2015 Cadillac SRX (towed)
2019 Tesla Model X
1991 Avanti Conv
Stripit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 04:19 PM   #14
wingnut60
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where we park it
Posts: 2,785
You need to find a Montana owner with one like the one you are looking at on the Montana Owners forum--should be a lot of action there, worlds' largest selling brand--and find out what the ACTUAL weight is as it is sold. It will be over the 'dry weight' listed, as Stripit mentioned, sometimes a LOT. My '15 Suites I just traded for has a 'dry weight' of 16300--I weighed it on way home with maybe 300lbs of personal stuff in it----18020!!!
You are going to be overloaded--manipulating the numbers won't change that. Even if the numbers happen to fit, you will be so near capacity on everything that just thinking about it will be uncomfortable. I said it before, your rear axle weight will have to be under 7500lbs--if you run close to that weight, you will be stressing the tires to the max.
Best you find a current owner of a similar fiver and see what they have to say....
__________________
2016 Tiffin 40 QBH
2015 38RSSA, traded
2005 TK3 #1869, 10 yrs of memories,
2017 F450 KR--one more Ford is it
2009 F450 4x4-died; 2010 F450-retired
wingnut60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2017, 07:26 PM   #15
Thphelps
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 3
350 has heavier reared and leaf springs.
Thphelps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2017, 05:07 PM   #16
Archie954
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thphelps View Post
350 has heavier reared and leaf springs.
Personality I will not exceed MFG. ratings ! Better safe then sorry.
__________________

Archie954 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×