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Old 11-29-2009, 03:02 PM   #1
jpws
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New to this! 5th wheel with a F250?

Hi guys - brand new to 5th wheels and just bought a new Fuzion 302 Toy hauler and pick it up in 2 wks- (weigh about 11300 dry wt) and will be towing it with an 08 F250 6.4L Diesel.

Question - do i have enough truck? 2) considering i'm pulling one of the shorter 5th wheels, do i need air bags?

thoughts would be appreciated.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:11 PM   #2
wingnut60
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fuzon toy hauler

I looked up the 302--has a carrying capacity of 5164 lbs, which means it grosses at 16300+/-. At the dry wt, your pin weight is around 2200lbs, at gross, PW is 3200. You are going to be over the gross combined weight and the gross vehicle weight and way over on the rear axle weight.
People do it all the time, but you will be overloaded.
Joe
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:11 AM   #3
Motor31
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Wingnut already covered it. Be aware that you are looking at far more wear and tear than the truck was built for and plan your stops with plenty of distance.

FWIW if you go to the Trailer Life web site you should be able to find a towing guide. That will cover the various makes and models of vehicles from domestic manufacturers. Buying that will help you plan what truck to get or trailer to look for based on your towing capacity. The magazine sends out an annual one for the current model year which is handy unless you are buying the new vehicle early in the model year. I think the guide comes out in either the Jan or Feb issue.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:03 AM   #4
LindaH
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Re: New to this! 5th wheel with a F250?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpws
will be towing it with an 08 F250 6.4L Diesel.
Here is the 2008 Ford Towing Guide.

You don't give any detail about the exact configuration of your 3/4-ton truck, but based on the above guide, the 2008 F-250 6.4L diesel has a GVWR ranging from a low of 8,800# to 10,000# (Page 6) and a GCWR of 23,000# (Page 19). Your truck has a published tow rating which ranges from 15,200# to 16,200# (Page 19).

There are a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. The truck's published tow rating is for a basic truck with no option, no gear, a partially filled fuel tank, and only one 150# driver. Once you add options, gear (including the fifth wheel hitch), what you should actually be towing will be something less.

2. Dry weight on a fifth wheel is a meaningless number because it does not include any manufacturer-installed options and certainly no dealer-installed options (or owner-installed options if buying used). The *real life* dry weight of any RV is almost certainly to be more than its published dry weight.

Besides which, even if the dry weight of the fifth wheel was exactly the same as its published dry weight, you're not going to be pulling an empty rig are you? I imagine you're going to fill up the propane tanks, put at least some water in the fresh water tank, load it up with food, cooking utensils, food, clothing, toiletries, bedding, etc., etc. -- not to mention whatever it is that you're going to be carrying in the garage.

The Keystone Fusion website doesn't list the GVWR of their toy haulers (shame on them), but if you take the dry weight and add the carrying capacity, you should come close (approx. 16,300# as wingnut60 stated).

I don't know what your loaded truck (full fuel tank, all passengers and gear) weighs, but if you weigh your loaded truck and subtract that weight from the truck's GCWR, that will tell you the maximum amount of loaded fifth wheel weight you should be carrying. Subtracting the truck's loaded weight from its GVWR will tell you the maximum pin weight you should be carrying (assume 20% of the fifth wheel's GVWR as a loaded pin weight, or around 3,200#).

Even if you squeek by on the GCWR (not likely, since, if you fill your fifth wheel to capacity...16,300#...your loaded truck would have to weigh no more than 6,700#), you'll certainly be over on the GVWR.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:09 PM   #5
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Wow - thanks so much. I'm now horrified!
what is the relevance of the GVRW of 10k, if the GCWR is 23k?

So, the best i can determine if the the curb weight of my F250 4dr crew cab short bed 6.4L diesel is 6500 lbs, and assumed full tank with 3 passengers at around 7500# total truck weight. So if i do the math you provided, 23,000 GCRW - 7500 total truck weight = 15500# that i can tow.

My GVRW is 10,000. So if my truck weights 7500 loaded, my max pin weight should be 2500#? and if that is the case and pin weight is 20% of the total, i will be at my capacity with an empty trailer (12500#)

my tow rating is 15200

what im struggling to understand, is how can i max out at 12500 when my tow rating is 15200?

I didnt find anything about "axle weight" as was mentioned above.
Would air bags help my cause?
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpws
Wow - thanks so much. I'm now horrified!
what is the relevance of the GVRW of 10k, if the GCWR is 23k?
GVWR is the amount the TRUCK can weigh with everything loaded into it, including the hitch weight of the fiver.

GCWR is the total amount of weight for the truck AND the fiver combined.
Quote:
So, the best i can determine if the the curb weight of my F250 4dr crew cab short bed 6.4L diesel is 6500 lbs, and assumed full tank with 3 passengers at around 7500# total truck weight. So if i do the math you provided, 23,000 GCRW - 7500 total truck weight = 15500# that i can tow.
Assuming your 7,500# loaded weight of your truck is a correct figure (you'd have to take it down to the local scales loaded up like it would be for any trip including a full tank of fuel, all passengers and gear that will be loaded into the truck, including the weight of the fifth wheel hitch to find out if that figure is accurate), then yes, since 23,000# minus 7,500# equals 15,500# that would be the maximum loaded weight of any fifth wheel you should be pulling. In reality, you would want to tow something that weighs less so that you're not at the maximum of your truck's capacities.
Quote:
My GVRW is 10,000. So if my truck weights 7500 loaded, my max pin weight should be 2500#? and if that is the case and pin weight is 20% of the total, i will be at my capacity with an empty trailer (12500#)
Yep, that's pretty much the case.
Quote:
what im struggling to understand, is how can i max out at 12500 when my tow rating is 15200?
GVWR is always the weak point for a 3/4-ton truck. If you take a look at the 2008 Ford Towing Guide to which I gave the link, you'll see that a similarly-equipped 3/4-ton and DRW 1-ton truck have pretty much the same tow rating. But take a look at the payload capabilities...in all cases, the DRW 1-ton will be able to carry more in the bed than the 3/4-ton.
Quote:
I didnt find anything about "axle weight" as was mentioned above.
Would air bags help my cause?
Air bags will help in keeping your truck from "squating." They will do nothing to increase any of the weight ratings (GVWR, GCWR, payload).
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:08 PM   #7
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ok so it seems i have little opttions.

1) pack lightly and don't come close to maxing out the trailer.
Get the trailer, carry to a weight station and weigh it (unhooked). from there i can estimate how much extra weight i'd add with water, toys, etc and shoot for no more than 14000lbs (2800 pin wt + 7200lb truck) (make the wife and kids follow - lol)

it appears that i will be close on teh GVWR even when fully loaded.


Question - is my biggest convern the GVWR or GCWR? i know that they both are a component of each other....but i could travel light in the truck if need be rear loading the trailer to take weight off the pin??


NOTE - EVEN IF I WAS LOADED TO 16000 LBS (3200LBS PIN)AND TRUCK WEIGHED 7500LBS, WOULD A GVRW OF 10700 BE THAT BIG OF A DEAL? I'D BE 700 OVER THE GVRW AND 500 OVER THE GCRW. IS THAT ENOUGH TO LOSE SLEEP OVER?

additionally, regarding AXLE weight, my front axle raing is 5600lbs and my rear is 6100lbs...so why is the GVRW only 10000? where is the other 1700lbs?

UPDATE - i weighted my truck. the internet weight i got was WRONG. Loaded it is 5300 front axle and 3400 rear axle.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:55 AM   #8
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To weigh the rig and get the real pin weight you will need to scale it twice. Use a scale at a truck stop and see that the truck axles are on 2 different weight pads. That way you get the front and rear weight of the truck. Then hook up the trailer and put the truck on the same pads. The trailer axles should be on another pad. Take the new weight numbers of the truck and subtract the other weight figures from them. That gives you the loaded weights and will tell you the real pin weight as the trailer is loaded onto it.

Don't weigh the trailer by itself as the load on the front jacks is different than the load on the pin. That won't give you the proper weights on either the axles or the pin.

The trailer should also be weighed loaded as you are going on a trip and the pin weight will go up as you put "stuff" into the unit. Subtracting the first truck weight total from the overall weight (the truck scale will give you all pad weights and a total overall) will give you the trailer weight as well. That will tell you what the real pin weight is not the factory "estimate" that they publish as well as the real axle weights.

The best weighing situation is to get the rig weighed so that each tire is weighed. That tells you the balance side to side and if any one tire is overloaded. Do not assume the trailer is loaded equally on both sides. It probably is not. That service can be obtained from an RV weighing company. There is a gent here on the board who does that and can explain it better than I.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:32 AM   #9
jpws
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On final Question and i will stop boring you nice folks.

My "official" GVRW is 10000 lbs on an 08 F250 4dr 4wd.
The front axle rating is 5600 and the rear axle rating is 6100. My math shows that that equals 11700lbs - which is obviously more than the 10,000 GVRW. Where did the difference go?
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpws
On final Question and i will stop boring you nice folks.

My "official" GVRW is 10000 lbs on an 08 F250 4dr 4wd.
The front axle rating is 5600 and the rear axle rating is 6100. My math shows that that equals 11700lbs - which is obviously more than the 10,000 GVRW. Where did the difference go?
I don't have an answer to your question other than to say that every single truck we've had has been that way; i.e., adding the GAWR, front and rear, always comes up with a higher number than the GVWR.

For example, our DRW Dodge has a front GAWR of 4,750# and a rear GAWR of 9,350#. That adds up to 14,100#, yet our GVWR is only 11,500#.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:46 AM   #11
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GVW is a factor of several items to include the body style, frame, brakes, wheels axles, transmission, rear end ratio, engine size and so on. Whichever is the "weakest link" determines the rating. Many of the components are the same through the models so the frame might be plenty strong but another item like brake size or style might cut the package short on the rating.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:02 PM   #12
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truck ratings

jpws...
If you are still looking at these replies--as to the rear axle rating, it is probably the total of the 2 rear tire weight ratings. You probably have D tires, maybe even Es, that will come close to 3050lbs each. As was mentioned earlier, the Gross Axle ratings always add up to more than the Gross Vehicle rating--pretty much anything you will put in the truck will influence the rear axle more than the front. If the mfgs could guarantee that you could load the truck with weight properly split between the axles, then maybe the axle ratings COULD add up to the GVW--but still most everything will be in the back seat/behind it and in the bed.
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Old 09-26-2010, 03:48 PM   #13
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problem is

The main problem is not one answer comes up with the solution. It's like talking to a politician. Everyone has an opinion and can dance around the facts like a rat on hot coals. SIMPLE! Weigh your truck with whoever rides in it on trips, full of fuel and estimate what is in it when you go. NEXT weigh the rig at a TRUCK scale (yes unhook it.) Now hook it up, weigh the truck front axel, then front and rear axels, and then truck and trailer and then trailer front and then trailer rear (this lets you know if it is fairly level). Do the math and sleep well! Lots of weigh positions but it is the only way to figure it all out. This is one of the most contested items in trailer pulling and what it eventually always comes down to is someone attempting to defend thier choice of truck. Check the records, there are no major accidents happening in mass, there are no crashes because of damage by mismatched tow/trailer combos in mass. It is hype at its best. Number one, drive slower! Number two, don't tailgate. Number three TRAILERS HAVE BRAKES! Number four, the differance between a 350 and a 250 are just about springs. Everyone states the 250 will not stop the trailer, well here is a news flash, neither will a 350, 450 or 550 simply because none are designed to do it, that's why trailers have brakes. This tow vehicle vs trailer talk is enough to make a sane person crazy! :twisted:
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Number four, the differance between a 350 and a 250 are just about springs.
What model years? Single or duels?
For quite a while it was just the tire load capacity and the spacer block between the rear axle and the rear springs. And the badges.. At least on the single rear wheel models.
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