View Full Version : Lippert Frames
This is from the MS Yahoo forum for those of you that do not subscribe to it.
"I'm going to post something I found on another site, the fellow that
posted it explained it well. The very same thing has happened to us
this past week and I just want everyone to check your spring hangers.
This sounds like it could very well be a problem with Lippert frames.
As posted on Rvtimes.com by Jocko:
"We had a massive failure with a Lippert frame. Our unit is a 2005
Doubletree Mobile Suite. 36 RE3. The rear spring bracket tore out of
the frame on the left-hand side. This allowed the rear axle to swing
back and all the weight was shifted to the front axle. The center and
front bracket were pulled back about 10 degrees and it would only
have been a matter of time before they tore loose and both axles
would have swung under the rig. Not a good thing! Probably a roll
over!
When we checked the other brackets, cracks were found at the welds
and in the sides of the hangers. We were a thousand miles from home
base and were able to get emergency repairs made to make it home. We
are still waiting to find out what the final fix is! We would like to
make plans for the summer.
I totally agree with Barb, If you have a Lippert frame, please for
yours and the safety of others please have the spring brackets and
welds checked.
I wish I could include pictures."
We also have a 2005 36RE3 and as I said this happened to us this
week. I think it's time to get NHTSA involved."
Lippert is not standing behind their frame saying it has only a 2 yr warranty. They also stated it was most likely caused by hitting a pot hole. Now keep in mind this is the rear axle that dose not take the blunt of any trauma!
We do know for a fact that at lest 2 frames have had this problem so every one needs to keep alert.
47hook
10-13-2007, 01:07 PM
Glad nobody was hurt.
Is it just me, or does it look like there is a lot of internal rust in the frame, shown in the 2nd picture? Where has the unit been used? Near the ocean, lots of water?
JPHarris
10-13-2007, 03:49 PM
Glad nobody was hurt.
Is it just me, or does it look like there is a lot of internal rust in the frame, shown in the 2nd picture? Where has the unit been used? Near the ocean, lots of water?
Well we do live about 5 miles from the ocean and 2 miles from the Delaware Bay, we also winter in Ft. Myers Fl which isn't to far from the Gulf of Mexico but I really don't see why this should matter. Yes it is in salt air but never been in salt water. The frame is a closed box tubing so the salt air shouldn't have any way to get inside of it. Unless the box tubing was already rusty when it was put together as a frame, maybe?
I could see salt air attacking the outside of the frame but not the inside.
My Elite had all the spring brackets welds brake off. I don't think one was keeping the springs in place. Problem is, there is very little weld surface to make a good connection. But, some of the brackets were not welded at all. Problem fixed until the next time.
JPHarris
10-13-2007, 07:28 PM
My Elite had all the spring brackets welds brake off. I don't think one was keeping the springs in place. Problem is, there is very little weld surface to make a good connection. But, some of the brackets were not welded at all. Problem fixed until the next time.
Did you notify anyone at Doubletree or Lippert about this? The person I talked to at Lippert said he never heard of this happening before, yeah right and I was born yesterday.
Motor31
10-14-2007, 08:51 AM
Having had a problem with the quality of welds done by Lippert on my own rig, I'm not surprised. That's a high stress area and something all of us should be checking for problems, particularly with some of the rough highways we may encounter. The box frame is a rather thin wall item and it wouldn't take that much to punch through it while welding. That would give access to water and excaserbate the rust problem.
Even though I have had them rewelded, I still check the shock mounts on my rig before we head out while I am checking tire pressure. That's how I found the broken one the first time.
47hook
10-14-2007, 10:49 AM
JPHarris, I would suspect that the frame is not a sealed unit, so what ever air is on the outside will be on the inside. I am not trying to be an apologist for Lippert, but just saying they don't do welds very well isn't a definitive explanation for the failure.
If the corrosion is part of the problem, there may be other areas of stress, pin box area, that will eventually fail. Might want to research this a little further, and any info you get would be of interest to us all, I believe.
Good luck.
JPHarris
10-14-2007, 11:21 AM
If everyone that ever had a problem with their frames, spring hangers, axles or suspension would file a complaint here http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ maybe Lippert and or DT would pay closer attention to their workmanship.
I would expect the frame to outlast the unit no matter what the conditions were. Also if the frame was rusted out there would be nothing to weld to for the repairs. The fact that it could be repaired shows that it is not from rusting. Anybody that is having the frame problems should look at the Moreride IS suspension as a fix as it eliminated the small stress area of the leaf spring system.
I had a Thore trailer that was 5 yr old and the frame manufacture took care of the cracks on site in Yuma, AZ at no charge. To say a frame is out of warranty on a manufacture defect in 2 yr is bunk.... :evil: especially when DT is touting it has one of the strongest frame on the market.
47hook
10-14-2007, 10:48 PM
Let's see, if the frame can be repaired, corrosion isn't a problem. But the OEM couldn't do it right with virgin steel. Ummm. How many times have we read that some "tech/saleman/rep" has led us astray with what is OK? My point is to find someone who doesn't have hands in your pocket to actually determine the cause of the original failure and possible fixes. I'm not a welder, but I suspect that for a weld to hold the underlying metal needs to be clean and defect free. Keep us informed, please. We are all in this together...(Red Green, for all those northwesterners/Canadian TV viewers).
My Elite had all the spring brackets welds brake off. I don't think one was keeping the springs in place. Problem is, there is very little weld surface to make a good connection. But, some of the brackets were not welded at all. Problem fixed until the next time.
Did you notify anyone at Doubletree or Lippert about this? The person I talked to at Lippert said he never heard of this happening before, yeah right and I was born yesterday.
This happened a year ago. I don't think I said anything to DT, but did show the RV dealer locality the problem. They did the re welding. I do look at the area every time I go out and haven't seem a return of the problem. The brackets that broke, have a very small area to weld. So, the brake easily.
47hook
10-14-2007, 11:20 PM
As usual, I am confused. Who did what when? Looking at the photos again, I believe it is not a year ago weld failure caused by not much area to weld but that the hangers were punched up into the frames, welds basically intact. And there is still all that corrosion on the frame, inside and out, and the axles. A year ago! Yea, let's all call the NTSB, and everyother gov't agency. Maybe they'll maintain our rigs for us.
Not saying it wasn't a bonafied frame failure, but there is more there than is being said, me thinks...
JPHarris
10-15-2007, 03:13 AM
Not saying it wasn't a bonafied frame failure, but there is more there than is being said, me thinks...
What do you think there is more of that is not being said?
My last 5er is still sitting in my back yard along side of the MS, an 03 Carriage Cameo, it has some surface rust also. It is now owned by my son but stored in my back yard. When you look at how Carriage installs their spring hangers it is a much better setup. They weld plates along both sides of the frame, it gives much more area to weld to.
I have had the MS weighed 3 different times, the day I picked it up, at the first MS Rally in May of 06 and the first time we towed it to Florida for the winter because I knew that was when it was the heaviest, never have I been over weight on the axles. The MS gets washed on a regular basis and waxed twice a year. I painted the frame area that I could get to one time. Sorry I couldn't get to the inside of the box tubing or even the inside of the frame unless I took the underbelly down. I check the air pressure in the tires before moving the trailer, EVERY TIME. Keep the spring shackles greased even though it was a pain to get to the zerks.
I don't know what more I could have done. If this is from salt air then maybe DT shouldn't be selling these units along each coast and also tell potential owners not to tow them when there is road salt present.
Please do tell if there is more there than what is being said, I would love to know what caused it besides what Lippert told me, POTHOLES.
JPHarris
10-15-2007, 03:21 AM
I would love to know who Jocko is, would love to talk to him to see what he found out, also to see if he lives near the ocean or not. As you can see his rig is also a 2005 RE3, same as mine. His left spring hanger did the same thing. Must be more there than what is being said!!!!
As posted on Rvtimes.com by Jocko:
"We had a massive failure with a Lippert frame. Our unit is a 2005
Doubletree Mobile Suite. 36 RE3. The rear spring bracket tore out of
the frame on the left-hand side. This allowed the rear axle to swing
back and all the weight was shifted to the front axle. The center and
front bracket were pulled back about 10 degrees and it would only
have been a matter of time before they tore loose and both axles
would have swung under the rig. Not a good thing! Probably a roll
over!
When we checked the other brackets, cracks were found at the welds
and in the sides of the hangers. We were a thousand miles from home
base and were able to get emergency repairs made to make it home. We
are still waiting to find out what the final fix is! We would like to
make plans for the summer.
I totally agree with Barb, If you have a Lippert frame, please for
yours and the safety of others please have the spring brackets and
welds checked.
I wish I could include pictures."
morscuba
10-15-2007, 09:04 AM
Sorry guys gotta add my 2 cents.
After looking at the pics, I'd be willing to bet the farm (and the RV) that he "jacko" did in fact hit a pot hole or curb or some other wonderfull road hazard that we all know are out there lurking. I'm not trying to defend Lippert or Doubletree. But as most of you probably have witnessed. STUFF happens. If you have ever been to the first rest stop On I 70 going into Missouri from Ill. Or been doing 65 when you enter the construction area 435 bypass around KC, or for that matter a good portion of I 40 going through Ark. and don't forget the 65 through Birmingham or Montgomery. You travel enough and its not a matter of "IF" its a matter of "when" you have a close encounter of "crap where did that come from".
I'm giving Jacko the benefit of doubt that it was a road hazard, and not the fact that he coulda made that turn just a little sharp and hit that curb or parking stop in Wally Worlds parking lot. The coaches aren't designed to hit stuff.
As for the rust,,, I have wintered in Key West and spent a buncha time in Ft Myers and the rest of coastal FL. and its full time job keeping surface rust off of anything including chrome. And its not a matter of weeks try days.
Sorry if I offended the folks that are ready to throw rocks at Lippert. But just gotta agree with the guy that said "pot hole"
Another thought that I had, the RE3 has most of the weight on the left side. Thats where the kitchen is. So add that to a posible pothole and a poor weld, well you can see what I mean. Poor frame construction?? QC??
Okie
Come on people, its the rear axle. What do you think he did, back though a pothole at 60 MPH.
As fare as ruff roads, this is suppose to be the strongest part of the rig, and according to DT the best frame on the market. It should take some ruff road!
I take my units out in the desert as do many others and I don't see this happening to them.
I also think some of you are getting mixed up with what your reading. We have been talking 3 different units here. That is 3 frame failures that I know of in how many DT units? 3000 maybe. If it was potholes then there should be RVs in the weld shop all over the place.
morscuba
10-16-2007, 07:29 AM
Just because the front axle didnt break hitting the obstruction doesnt mean SQUAT!!!. And if you really look around at some of the weld shops and RV shops they have plenty of work to do on axle and undercarrage's. I think maybe some of the folks on the forum gotta bad case of "lets blame someone, anyone".
Just because the front axle didnt break hitting the obstruction doesnt mean SQUAT!!!. And if you really look around at some of the weld shops and RV shops they have plenty of work to do on axle and undercarrage's. I think maybe some of the folks on the forum gotta bad case of "lets blame someone, anyone".
Are you the one with the blind fold on or the rose colored glasses?? 8)
morscuba
10-16-2007, 12:28 PM
Are you the one with the blind fold on or the rose colored glasses?? 8)[/quote]
Nope I'm the one that doesnt have a lot of sarcastic come back's or hates the world cause I got a supposedly crappy deal from Doubletree, and I'm not the one that was born with s**t for brains. Go on keep haten the world brother, it'll make me feel a whole lot better known you do.
bstark
10-16-2007, 12:39 PM
Whoa guys! Let's go over to my trailer, sit a spell, drink a few Colorado Kool-Ades and talk politics instead! :lol:
Are you the one with the blind fold on or the rose colored glasses?? 8)
Nope I'm the one that doesnt have a lot of sarcastic come back's or hates the world cause I got a supposedly crappy deal from Doubletree, and I'm not the one that was born with s**t for brains. Go on keep haten the world brother, it'll make me feel a whole lot better known you do.[/quote]
DT isn't being blamed in this thread so you must be the blind folded one.
Google Lippert frames and you will see how long they have been making bad welds on frames and axles. It isn't just on DT product line either. There is a NHTSA recall on Lippert for bad axles welds earlier this yr too.
Do some homework instead of calling names, you will be better off foe it.
JPHarris
10-16-2007, 06:42 PM
Just because the front axle didnt break hitting the obstruction doesnt mean SQUAT!!!. And if you really look around at some of the weld shops and RV shops they have plenty of work to do on axle and undercarrage's. I think maybe some of the folks on the forum gotta bad case of "lets blame someone, anyone".
I'm not trying to blame anyone, I just want to know why it happened. I've hit many potholes with my cars and trucks and never broke anything. If they can build a car or truck to withstand potholes then why can't they build an RV to hold up to them?
In 2005 DT was using 7000 lb axles, in 2006 I think it was they went to 8000 axles as standard equipment, why? maybe they figured out the 7000 lb axle isn't enough under their trailer.
As another poster said it might be in issue with the 36RE3 with more weight on the left side. The 2 units they I know of that failed were both 36RE3 with left side spring hangers broken.
I had my individual wheels weighed at the first MS Rally, front axle had 6175 lbs with 3500 of that on the left side, rear axle had 6125 lbs with 3200 lbs of that on the left tire, I know they are heavier on the left side.
It wouldn't take more than $100.00 in steel to beef up the frame where they weld the spring hangers, I really don't see it being a big deal.
I will tell you this much, when you are driving on the interstate doing 65 MPH and you look in your mirror and see your tire and axle just flopping around back there and your A--hole puckers up I don't think you will be apologizing for Lippert or DT then.
morscuba
10-16-2007, 07:06 PM
HOBO
go back and read what I wrote.. I didnt call anyone any names. I wrote
" I was't the one born with s**t for brains. either you cant read or the statement struck close to home. Only thing I said to you I was getting a whole lotta joy outta you being pissed off at the world. I'm done going back in forth with you so you post anything you want and have fun, and enjoy blaming who ever for what ever.. Its good for the soul brother.. Me I got better things to do.
rverdlm
10-16-2007, 08:45 PM
OK, let's get back to discussing the issue at hand! What failed and why. Looking at the pictures I see 2 things that have bothered me. One, the weld did not fail. The tubing itself was punctured. The other thing I see is that unlike my frame the bottom of the frame does not look like it is straight across, but rather that it goes up in the area of the spring hanger. Maybe it's some kind of optical illusion! In any case this failure required some extreme forces. People say "my car/pickup never failed" that is a red herring! Designing a frame for an RV is totally different. The designer must comprimise between strenght and weight. Sure they could design a frame that would never fail under any load, but then it couldn't be towed with any pickup. None of us can possibly know how this trailer was towed/treated/loaded. This being the internet anyone can post/say anything. When someone on here says "I never speed, never run over loaded, never went on horrible roads, never ran over a curb at 60 mph, etc we have no way of knowing if that is true or not. We should not get overly exorcize defending the owner or the manufacturer because we do not have enough info to defend either one. It's enough to know that we should check our frames etc on a regular basis and that applies to every company out there because they all have basically the same issues. If you don't believe this you need to get out more and talk to other RVers. Then you'll find that there are frame issues with every company.
crunch1
10-16-2007, 08:54 PM
I hope every one knows there is a difference in the frame after 2004. The frame before 2005 was a Leland frame, somewhere they switched to a Lippert around 2005. Maybe this is why some of the early ones are not having a problem, also they were rated for 16k gvw, a lot less than the ratings on the Lippert frames.
I had to replace the rear axle after hitting a big hole with my previous 5th wheel. I was going about 50 MPH around Cincinatti on the southern side of the interstate loop. It was the first and only time the cuboards came open and dishes broke. :cry:
It was bent real bad. :cry:
JPHarris
10-17-2007, 04:42 AM
OK, let's get back to discussing the issue at hand! What failed and why. Looking at the pictures I see 2 things that have bothered me. One, the weld did not fail. The tubing itself was punctured.
I believe that the tubing was weakened when the spring hanger was welded.
The other thing I see is that unlike my frame the bottom of the frame does not look like it is straight across, but rather that it goes up in the area of the spring hanger. Maybe it's some kind of optical illusion! In any case this failure required some extreme forces.
It is the way the picture was taken, optical illusion. The frame does indeed go straight across. Extreme forces? none that I'm aware of, normal potholes, YES, overloading? not the 3 times I've had it weighed.
People say "my car/pickup never failed" that is a red herring! Designing a frame for an RV is totally different. The designer must compromise between strength and weight. Sure they could design a frame that would never fail under any load, but then it couldn't be towed with any pickup. None of us can possibly know how this trailer was towed/treated/loaded.
I under stand it can't be designed like a car or truck but they could put a little reinforcement in the stress areas without adding much weight to the rig. I would much rather have a stronger frame than granite counter tops.
This being the Internet anyone can post/say anything. When someone on here says "I never speed, never run over loaded, never went on horrible roads, never ran over a curb at 60 mph, etc we have no way of knowing if that is true or not. We should not get overly exorcize defending the owner or the manufacturer because we do not have enough info to defend either one.
I don't much care what you believe. When I made the original post it was because I wanted people to go out and look at their frames/welds/spring hangers/axles and what not to make sure they are safe going down the road. This whole thread has gotten out of hand.
It's enough to know that we should check our frames etc on a regular basis and that applies to every company out there because they all have basically the same issues. If you don't believe this you need to get out more and talk to other RVers. Then you'll find that there are frame issues with every company.
Yep I'm checking mine this week, I have a company coming to the house to ultrasound the entire frame, it will tell me the thickness along the entire length, now just trying to figure out how to get to the pin box area without taking the front cap off to check the steel in that area. Will remove cap if we have to.
You are right every company has frame issues but if you do a google search you will see that the majority of the issues are coming from Lippert frames. Oh never mind disregard that statement, you can't beleive anything you read on the Internet.
Dave, correct me if I'm wrong please. If my memory serves me right I think you were towing a vehicle behind the MS when I saw you at the first rally. If I do have that right can you tell me if you did anything to beef the frame up? or did you just had a hitch to back of the frame?
I'm just being curious is all.
I looked at the pictures of the spring hangers and they are different then what I have on my 06 TK3. I wonder if they made a change or if it's part of my magnum suspension. I will try to attach a picture of mine so you can compare.
I have been having problems with the shock brackets though and that is deffinatly a QC problem with the welds. Called Lippert today and talked to a fellow that got up on the wrong side of the bed. I'll try again tomorrow.
Picture didn't work so I'll try to explain it. Mine has a gusset welded to the spring shackle and to the frame. It's about 6 in across on top and goes down to within an in of the bottom of the spring shackle. Lack of these gussets could be the reason they bent and tore the frame.
JPHarris
10-17-2007, 09:01 PM
Ade, yes please attach a picture I would love to see the difference.
47hook
10-18-2007, 12:23 AM
Looks the same as mine.
sigo'suite
10-18-2007, 07:59 AM
Looks the same as mine, 2005 #2375. Gussets at front & rear hangers
Motor31
10-18-2007, 08:51 AM
There were no gussets in the pix of the failure in the beginning of the thread. I wonder if they just got left off of that frame or if they were a change to latter frames. They might have had a part in keeping that from happening.
JPHarris
10-18-2007, 10:33 AM
There were no gussets in the pix of the failure in the beginning of the thread. I wonder if they just got left off of that frame or if they were a change to latter frames. They might have had a part in keeping that from happening.
You're right, there wasn't any gussets on my hangers. I wonder when and why they started using them? Never mind about the why part, I know why so that leaves when?
bstark
10-18-2007, 02:54 PM
My unit # is 2367 and it does NOT have any gussets - - but it will shortly! :wink:
Mine has the gussets. #2163
They don't look like the pic that is on here thow.
I will try to get a pic and post it here.
billr
10-19-2007, 01:21 PM
Our 05 38RL3 S/N 2046 with magnum susp. has the same gussets as ADE's picture. Shock brackets still intact, but welds are ugly!!
Cheers,
Bill
Motor31
10-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Our rig #2366 does have the gussets. They are located in front of the front axle and behind the rear axle. We ordered the unit with the 8,000 lb axles and Trailaire suspension. Bstark, I have no idea why two 38' units in sequential order would be different in the installation of gussets. :? What suspension option did yours come with?
JPHarris
10-21-2007, 01:39 PM
Not on Doubletree products but Lippert Frames none the less, read these threads over on Trailer Life forum
http://www.trailerlife.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20477718.cfm
http://www.trailerlife.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20462029.cfm
Here are a couple pics of my spring hangers.
I do not hane the magnum suspention.http://www.5thwheelforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_5003_0_7c6233f6c879bfa1adcfa97b952b2e60.jpg
http://www.5thwheelforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_5003_1_e9314aeae1216bd1c0f98f18800eebf7.jpg
JPHarris
10-21-2007, 05:41 PM
That looks like a solid spring hanger to me. Mine didn't look anything like that. I wonder when they changed to that style? There is even decent looking welds on it. Thanks for posting the pictures.
It was built 3/15/05.
#2163
Strange.....Isn't it?
bstark
10-21-2007, 06:27 PM
Mike: I ordered the Magnum with Trailair C/P. No gussets at all. Lippert just hires a guy from day to day maybe and gives him 5 min's training and when he quits thay hire another one etc., etc.. Gotta tell ya, with all of the problems Lippert owners are reporting with frame failures on RV.Net etc., I have no faith in their quality at all. Just one more example of low bidder producing crap to still enable a profit.
JPHarris
10-21-2007, 07:19 PM
Do any of you fellows with 05 models have the warranty paper work showing the frame warranty? Kent told me 3 years Lippert said nope only 2 years. I can's find my warranty papers so I can't prove anything. I did get a copy for the 08 model and that said 3 years on the frame. It could have been different in 05, just trying to double check.
If you don't want to post in public then please PM me if you can.
Thanks
ChrisM
10-23-2007, 12:18 AM
Lipperts warranty's usually start at the build date, not the purchase date. And, to make things even more fun, call Lippert and see what they say vs. what Double Tree says. With all their problems, I certainly hope they either get their act together or lose their hold on the market. Its bad enough dealing with them on the service side, I could only imagine what it would be like to actually own something of theirs... :(
Do any of you fellows with 05 models have the warranty paper work showing the frame warranty? Kent told me 3 years Lippert said nope only 2 years. I can's find my warranty papers so I can't prove anything. I did get a copy for the 08 model and that said 3 years on the frame. It could have been different in 05, just trying to double check.
If you don't want to post in public then please PM me if you can.
Thanks
If Kent said it was 3yrs then I would take the bill to DT as that is whom you bought it from and let them deal with Lippert.
JPHarris
10-24-2007, 05:44 AM
Huck, after looking at one of your photos it appears to be a small crack in your frame, take a look at it. I'm not very good with the photo shop stuff but I tried to put a arrow pointing it out. I looks like there is even a rust stain where water might be coming from the inside of the frame. I hope I'm wrong but you might want to check it closer.
sigo'suite
10-24-2007, 08:26 AM
Me thinks maybe what you are seeing is the end of the angle which is welded to the frame to which the little piece of snap on molding is attached.
JPHarris
10-24-2007, 01:05 PM
Me thinks maybe what you are seeing is the end of the angle which is welded to the frame to which the little piece of snap on molding is attached.
I hope that's all it is but my angle runs horizontally, what I'm seeing is going vertical up the side of the frame. Maybe I'm not looking at it right.
Me thinks maybe what you are seeing is the end of the angle which is welded to the frame to which the little piece of snap on molding is attached.
I hope that's all it is but my angle runs horizontally, what I'm seeing is going vertical up the side of the frame. Maybe I'm not looking at it right.
I enlarged the picture and after looking at my frame would agree it is the angle to hold the edging for the under belly.
WildJohn
10-25-2007, 06:00 PM
I am glad someone said something.. I saw it also.. after the explanation I see what you are talking about... looks like the end of the angle accentuated by the shadow of the flash.
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