Tow vehicle help

[learning]

Hi Iam Learning,

We got a good deal on a Ford 250 Lariat supercab. So we bought it.
Then we traded our motorhome for a 36ft Doubletree fifth wheel. As we drove our truck it felt like the fifthwheel was bucking us. Then when we turned left our brakes locked up and we couldn't move forward or backward so the next day my husband unplugged things and we drove around the corner home with no brakes. As I have been reading the forum questions I see no has a small truck. Must we trade in for a 350? Or is there a way to jazz up our 250.
I hope someone will help us or tell us who to call. We are stuck.
Thank you in advance.

Learning
P>S> I apologize. I don't understand all the BBcode,
HTML Polls, etc. Hope i do this right

[anijet]

Hi learning,

The bucking you mentioned, is it traveling along a road with expansion joints? This is typically called chucking and can be helped with a varity of hitches and/or pin boxes. I finally eliminated most of the chucking with an AirSafe air ride hitch and a Demco Glide Ride pin box.

As far as the brakes, it sounds like the emergency disconnect pin was pulled which will apply full brake force from the trailer battery until the battery drains or the switch/pin is reset.

The 250 will not be rated by Ford for that much weight. It will pull the trailer just fine but stopping and stability will be marginal. If the trailer has disc brakes, that will help. If it has electric brakes, I would upgrade the truck. Also, make sure you are not exceeding the weight limits of the tires. The chassis and axles will usually carry more than they are rated for, but not the tires.

[wingnut60]

Learning,

Where in Texas are you?

you should have a 350 dual rear wheel minimum for that trailer, maybe even a 450.

You need to fix the brake situation before you tow again, even with the 250--sounds like you pulled the emergency brake pin out of the socket. It should be replaced back into the black box on the side of the trailer frame pin box. Then be sure it has enough length not to be pulled out when turning.

There are lots of folks on this forum who will try to help you with the "Learning"

[learning]

Thanks. We are in Whitney, Texas just 40 miles north of Waco. The bottom line is we should have done our homework???? before letting the repair shop talk us into trading our Holiday Rambler for this MS.. Even though it is beautiful and has everything we need we are stuck now to buy up or trade our MS for something smaller or lighter. Iam a little frustered right now. Have done lots of searching and looks like we need a miracle. Being a woman and wanting to get help, I apologize that I do not understand much about all this. Please forgive me for taking up your time.

[rotaxman]

Learning

First off don't apologize for anything everyone on this forum at one time or another as gone thru a learning curve.

I myself did much like you I ordered my trailer and then bought an F 350 one ton dually four door and proceeded to invest about 7000.00 dollars in aftermarket products only to find out when I went to pick up the trailer that I didn't have a big enough truck.

There are a lot of people pullings MS's with one tons but for me it was not a pleasant towing experience I didn't know for sure who was running ths show the truck or the trailer.

If you have a 36ft Mobile Suite you need at least an F 450 or bigger. I will no doubt get flamed for this statement but it's not a matter of opinion it's a matter of numbers all you have to do is go to the manufactures website and look at the trailer towing chart and you will see that the rear axle load cap will be exceeded and in some cases the front also.

I haven't found a trailer with the exception of the Teton that is heavier than a Mobile Suite.

I feel your pain if I had it to do all over again I would be pulling somehting else but as it is now I have to keep it a few more years before I will be able to trade without loosing my skin.

I know all of this is of no help to your situation but I know the spot your in been there and didn't like it.

Hope that you get out of your prediciment and can get on with the travels

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

[RonS]

Everyone thinks that the truck they have and are using for towing is the best, thats why they have it. Having said that I would like to see a poll of Molile Suites owners and what they are using as TV. The most I have seen are one ton diesel duallys, second place I would give to 3/4 ton diesels who have added air assist bags, then comes a few of the the big boys. I did tow my 36TK3 with a 3/4 ton diesel just to see how it felt, it pulled fine and breaking was not an issue. (Now comes in the weight police). The same day of my test tow with the 3/4 ton I came upon a one ton diesel dually which I purchased. I was shopping for a newer truck anyway, and this dually tows great and fits in my garage. When I was at the DoubleTree factory for warranty work, I noticed most of the people who are delivering 5th wheels from the factory to the dealers are using duallys. I have never driven any of the bigger trucks, and my guess that they handle the MS great, but I dont want one.

[sigo'suite]

I agree with RonS on this subject of big boys and their toys.

As signature below says, towing with an F-350 dually totally stock. I did change out the Ford integral brake controller for a much better brake controller and just recently changed hitch out for one which I really like, that has noticably softened the chucking motion.

There are some towing with the 3/4 ton, I know one who tows all over the country with one and it is a 7.3L, of course he has souped it up a bit. He also helped the springs with the Timbren load supports.

Now have at it fella's!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

[WildJohn]

I had a long detailed answer almost ready to post yesterday and punched the wrong button or something and lost it.. once again the Good Lord was taking care of me and I didn't send it. For all the information you can use and probably more you can check out the Escapees forums.

http://escapees.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/307606751
Should get you to the forum pages.

If you study these forums history pages you can make your own informed decision by weeding through the opinions. Concentrate on the posts from people who have spent the money to go from too little truck to 'nuf truck and then to plenty of truck.
Study the manufacturers weight tables and you will see that despite some people's opinions a 3/4 ton truck is not designed to pull these rigs.. as has been said before.. you can pull it with a VW if you modify it enough and have enough time to get where you are going.
If you want the ultimate in towing comfort for a long haul and never have to be concerned about safety or the ability of your tow vehicle that is not the right way to go.

Good luck and if there is anything I can do to help you just let me know.
Happy Camping... all the time
John

[rotaxman]

Learning

I knew I shouldn't have posted on this subject I hereby resign my commision as weight police and will not get involved in this topic any more.

I will start my quest of finding a good 3/4 ton to pull this light weight trailer.

I apologize for forgetting what the original question was. I didn't mean to start this useless argument about who's is the best.

Learning check your pm's

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

No just Jerry

[Motor31]

Learning,

You have 3 choices in trucks. Light duty, 1 ton and below, Medium duty, 450 through 650 and the HDT's which are the converted heavy haulers, class 7 and 8.

As far as which one you want, it's up to you. At this time there is little enforcement of weight standards for RV's outside of a major collision. As such you can get by with a light duty truck for a heavy RV, as long as nothing bad happens. There are quite a few folks who are doing just that and some are very vocal about it to the point of name calling and sarcasm rather than compliance with the factory towing specs in their vehicles.

You've been given a good source to start doing some research. You might also want to look at the laws in the state that you will have as your home or domicile state as that will give you the legal guidance regarding licensing for both the truck and you. The SKP site can help point you in the direction to look there as well for all 3 choices. Ask questions there and you'll get serious non sarcastic answers since folks know we all started out as a beginner.

Doing research now before you get the trailer and truck may possibly save you some serious money if you get a minimal truck and find it wasn't up to the task you had in mind.

[wingnut60]

Motor 31--

An excellent reply.

[bstark]

Here comes another .02 cents worth of opinion.

As RV'ers, we are all members of a large fraternity and are continuously subjected to stuff that will 'test' us. It's easy to assume a superior position and chastise each other. We must remember that we are all in this together and should 'assist' where possible and leave the lecturing to folks like the law enforcement officers who's job it is and are paid to do it.

When you post a request for info, it is, in my opinion the same as a request for help and as RV'ers we should be willing to provide that without strings attached by way of caustic or belittling comments.

You have received some very good info and also a link to the Escapee's forum where, as Mike says, folks have discussed and continue to discuss this topic without rancor or invective.

[sigo'suite]

Told ya so !!!!! :lol:

[hitchup]

Hey Learning:

I'm the researcher & the female in our duo. I was sort of hoping that these men would help you out. But I was waiting for more information from you. What year is your MS, what weight GVWR is on the tag, what year is the F250, what weight GCWR on it & most importantly what is the 5er towing capacity?

Reasons are: the bucking could be one thing & locking up of the brakes could be because you have a MS that has disc brakes & the F250 brake controller isn't compatible. Or like us, something in the bed of our truck pulled out the pin lock & we were stuck in a turn. To help with your research, Trailer Life's annual towing guide from 1999-2007(2008 Ford)
http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175

Been there, done that. We went from a 16,000 lb OR 5er pulled by a 1-ton to the 18,500 lb ES 5er & F450. But not all at the same time. We kept the ES as light as possible until we could find the truck we could afford & would do the job. Took us well over a year.

Vickie

[Texas 250]

250 or 350 Ford trucks have the same GVWR, it depends on how heavy your truck is (diesel/gas , 4wd/2wd, 4dr/2dr, dual wheel/single wheel) then deduct the weight of your truck from gross towing capacity and that tells you what you can tow. My 2001 CC/4dr/4wd/SWB/PowerStroke weighs 7500lbs ,my truck is rated for 20000 total towing, which leaves about 12500lbs to tow. My M/S weighs 16500lbs empty at D.P.S. scale, so Iam 4000lbs over (before Iam loaded up) limit. My 250 has air bags which does help on leveling and also isspro gauges for monitoring the drivetrain. So with me being over weight about(4000 trailer plus stuff 2500) do I feel unsafe going down the road? YES. When I see somebody in a 350 towing a M/S I know ( depending on year model) a 250 is rated for the same total towing capacity. When I bought my 01 both 250/350 ,single or dual where rated the same towing capacity.


2001/250/4wd/CC/Swb/PS
2007/36RS3/Loaded

[Texas 250]

250 or 350 Ford trucks have the same GVWR, it depends on how heavy your truck is (diesel/gas , 4wd/2wd, 4dr/2dr, dual wheel/single wheel) then deduct the weight of your truck from gross towing capacity and that tells you what you can tow. My 2001 CC/4dr/4wd/SWB/PowerStroke weighs 7500lbs ,my truck is rated for 20000 total towing, which leaves about 12500lbs to tow. My M/S weighs 16500lbs empty at D.P.S. scale, so Iam 4000lbs over (before Iam loaded up) limit. My 250 has air bags which does help on leveling and also isspro gauges for monitoring the drivetrain. So with me being over weight about(4000 trailer plus stuff 2500) do I feel unsafe going down the road? YES. When I see somebody in a 350 towing a M/S I know ( depending on year model) a 250 is rated for the same total towing capacity. When I bought my 01 both 250/350 ,single or dual where rated the same towing capacity.


2001/250/4wd/CC/Swb/PS
2007/36RS3/Loaded

[RustyJC]

If one wants to run the numbers instead of looking at overly optimistic "manufacturer's trailer towing ratings" that are calculated using a base vehicle with only a 150 lb driver, then one needs to know the truck's GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating - the maximum allowable total weight of the loaded truck and towed load) and GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - the maximum allowable weight that can be carried by the truck, including the truck itself). In addition, one should run the truck over the scales loaded just as it will be when it hits the road with options, accessories (including 5th wheel hitch), full fuel tank(s), cargo, driver, passengers, etc. - this will be the truck's LCW (laden curb weight).

Truck's GCWR - Truck's LCW = maximum allowable total weight of loaded trailer

Truck's GVWR - Truck's LCW = maximum allowable pin/hitch weight of loaded trailer

A given SRW (single rear wheel) and DRW (dual rear wheel) truck may have the same GCWR - in this case, the lighter SRW truck may have a higher "manufacturer's trailer towing rating" which is calculated as GCWR - assumed curb weight. However, because of the 20%+ pin weight of the 5th wheel trailer that is carried by the truck, a SRW truck will almost always exceed its GVWR long before it reaches its GCWR or "manufacturer's trailer towing rating". This is the reason for the dually - its higher rear GAWR and GVWR ratings.

If one searches in the fine print where a manufacturer gives his trailer tow ratings, something similar to the following phrase will appear - "None of the truck's ratings are to be exceeded when towing." This is the "gotcha" that catches the SRW trucks on GVWR!

Rusty

[sigo'suite]

learning, check your pm's

[Motor31]

The F250 and F350 do have the same weight ratings, up to a point. That's where the F350 continues to have a higher capacity.

Per the 2007 Trailer life towing guide, 5th wheel category.

F250 / F350 combined go to a max of 15,500 lbs with auto trans and 3.73:1 drive

F350 goes to 18,800 lbs with auto trans and 4.30:1 drive.

If both models had the same ratings all across the board there would be no reason to have both models in the line.

The F250 is not rated to haul the 38' MS rigs empty (16,500) or the 36' MS rigs loaded to max weight.

Adding air bags, chips, transmission mods or larger wheels / tires does not change the weight capacity of the tow vehicle. Only the factory is authorized to make a change in the capacity.

[RustyJC]

The pin weight of a MS will put the F250 over its GVWR, regardless of its "manufacturer's trailer tow rating" or its GCWR.

Rusty

[learning]

Hey everyone,
You have all been such a blessing. I had no idea I would get such detailed responses. Thank you.
The absolute amazing discovery happened when we took our truck in for manuel air bags. The young man came out from the install with a look that could kill. The blankety blank people who install our hitch, had just used the 4 bolts to hold it down with nuts and gee, forgot to brace it to the frame. We know once again that our Dear Lord had us in His hand for the bucking I originally complained about was the truck bed and the fifth wheel bouncing back & forth. We drove this in the rain and if we had to use our brakes quickly, that MS could have came over the truck and killed us, & possibly others on the road. I called the dealership and the assistant said the owner was not there but no he said we could not get our money back. We had contacted a lawyer friend for our rights and he said to tell them to take the hitch and return our $1,300. That even was an outrageous amount for a 15K hitch and we have a 1600 LB weight.
Now we have to find a lawyer in central Texas to help us. I will write to the Action Line with Good Sam and from there, I don't know. My computer has been on the fritz, that's why Iam answering so late.
Sorry. Please return with any help. Thanks,

[rotaxman]

Learning

I'm very happy that things went as well as they did with that first pull you are lucky that it didn't just rip the bottom of your bed out and leave the truck. If the break away switch and related parts were working correctly you might of got by with just tearing up your truck and trailer.

Again I'm glad that it turned out as good as it did eventhough it wasn't good. I think the dealer owe's you and hope that you collect.

What was the name of the outfit that installed your hitch?? I'm sure that everyone would like to know so that they will be sure and stay away from them.

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

[bstark]

Do any of the rest of you wonder how these guys (unscrupulous dealers) avoid costly lawsuits when they seem to be ablt to pull this stuff time and time again?

Can you imagine for a moment the accident investigators with their clipboards making note of the fact there was no physical connection between the fifth wheel hitch and the frame of the truck?

I know as individuals we need to take responsibility for some stuff but what if this were members of our family who decided to go RV'ing and trusted their local dealer to get them set-up and we lived too far away to check it all out for them to make sure they'd done it all correctly?

Stuff like this makes my blood boil!

[rotaxman]

Bruce

Boy do I second that it is amazing the number of DA's that hang a sign and say they are professionals when they don't know a screw driver from a hammer. Or for that matter know anything about anything except cashing those checks.

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

[rverdlm]

I would go after the hitch manufacturer. They have some responsibility because they allow the dealer to be an installer. If nothing else this dealer would loose this product for sale.

[Motor31]

It's silly to go after the manufacturer of the hitch. They have no control over the situation if the dealer does not follow instructions later on or abuses the equipment unless the manufacturer is directly supervising them during each and every install. That makes as much sense as suing the auto manufacturer of a driver because he used their car he bought 3 years before to rear end you. Place responsibility where it belongs, on the people who screwed it up not on someone who was not in a position to be able to prevent it.

This is a sales and installation error. Sales because they didn't sell the correct piece of equipment (15k hitch for a 16+k load) and installation as they didn't follow manufacturers instructions for putting it in the truck. That's not the manufacturer's fault and there is no reason to sue them. Certainly send them a letter of complaint outlining the circumstances and perhaps they will drop the dealer from their list or retrain their installation section.

[rverdlm]

I didn't say to sue the manufacturer. What I tried to say was to notify the manufacturer of the hitch so that they will prevent the dealer from selling their product or train them to do the install properly. A manufacturer can not sell a product through a network of dealers and then just wash their hands of responsibility for their product. I would think that if they are a responsible company they would put some pressure on the dealer/installer for a refund of the installation charge. As to the hitch not being rated high enough for the trailer both the seller and the buyer have responsibility for that, but IMHO the buyer more so.

[RonS]

Learning - What size hitch will you be changing too?

[learning]

Hi ya all.
My computer again went on the blitz and found out I had 68 problems all brought on or not caught by the Norton Anti Virus. Scarry!
My update....... We did take the 5er to the dealer who is North Texas RV with a side sales called Best Value RV in Krum (Denton) Texas. The owner, Ken, gave us back our money and an additional $40 for gas, and said the wrong size hitch and incorrect install was just an oversight. (GASP!). But the topper is my husband went to check the batteries .. and all 6, 6volt batteries were dry as a bone. The dealer said everything was gone thru and was in top shape. Again, we must be aware that there are people out there like them and don't just take their word for it. I just don't know how people can sleep at night knowing what they do, but we were at fault for not checking everything at the dealership before we pulled out so I am not trying to place the blame solely on them.
Hoping to see you all on the road some day soon. May the wind be at your back.

[Motor31]

Learning,

Check out a product called AVG. It's an antivirus program and they have a very effective free version. I've been using it for over a year and it's been fantastic at keeping little creepy crawly things out of the computer. Besides the price is right and it does NOT put a ton of crap on the computer like Norton and McAfee (Symantic) does so it stays running more efficiently.

I also have ZoneAlarm (a firewall protector) and PC Tools Spyware Doctor installed both of which are also free.

[Gemstone]

One issue not mentioned in detail was cost. For less than the cost of a modifed 1 Ton, you can be the proud owner of a HDT, fully modified, ready to tow anything you can imagine, for as long as you are able to drive. A MDT probably makes more sense for pulling our units.... until you get to the cost factor.
We too went with a 3500...Dodge SRW and are now moving up to a HDT.

Loaded pin weight was heavy for the Dodge, so air bags were installed to level the truck. For lack of good mileage on the Dodge, a chip was installed..which just happened to increase torque and HP as well. Then for slowing power (after a white knuckle/seat pucker situation) we installed a Jake Brake. So, now we can pull level, have plenty of pulling power, have plenty of slowing power for down grades...but what about stopping power ???? There is not enough brakes there for me to feel comfortable with 19K pounds behind me, thus our decision to make one last vehicle change...for far less $$$ than we have invested in the Dodge we now have a HDT. All is not lost however...we are keeping the Dodge for DW's commute vehicle, and to pull our 20' Motorcycle "garage/shop".
Anyboby looking for a displaced 2004 Jetta for a Toad ?

"Learning", we wish you well on you journey. And do I understand correctly...your hitch installer only bolted the hitch to the bed of the P/U ?

Regards
Gemstone

[Motor31]

I posted this up in the HDT section as well.

For those who would like to learn about or just look at class 8 (HDT) tow vehicles there is the 07 annual HDT rally being held in Wichita Kansas during the week of Sept. 30th through Oct 6th.

You do not need an HDT to learn about them, all are welcome including folks who don't even have an RV. We have had folks stay in a local motel for the rally while they became acquainted with these vehicles and how they are used.

The rally is being held at the Blasi Campground and at Doonan's Peterbuilt dealership, both of which are located across the street from each other off of highway 54 / 400 on the west side of Wichita.

[rdunk]

On a post of this subject area, the responses are usually based upon each of our personal experiences with our own equipment, and include some insight to our own fears and feelings of safety. The Dodge mentioned above has never been rated even close for some of the heaver Suites, yet many feel completely safe using a Dodge for their tow vehicle. I don't know about this year, but prior, only the Ford F350, with Towboss, has had high enough factory ratings for these heavier Suites ( rated for 26,000 GCWR, and up to 19,200 Max Tow Weight, depending upon cab config, and 2x or 4x drive).

CAT scale weights for our fully loaded for fulltiming RE3 showed we are just under everything, except our GCWR was about 250lbs over, which is easily manageable. We feel completely safe, and comfortable using the TowBoss Ford for our towing. Neither my wife, nor I, have any desire to have a HDT, or similar, as our fulltime driver. But then that is just us, for the few that do use those big trucks seem to like them just fine.

Someone mentioned a concern about the tow vehicle stopping 19,000lbs, I am not sure I understand that concern, because fifth wheels are designed to stop themselves. If you have a good brake controller, and good brakes on the 5er, then the 5er should stop itself.

Of course, if you are really concerned about stopping the 5er safely and quickly, then disc brakes are much better than band brakes. I have seen comparison tests on the internet with results that show disc brakes stop the 5er in a much shorter distance. Mor/ryde talks about disc brakes stopping in up to a 30% shorter distance. Now that could mean the difference between a safe stop, and having an unfortunate situation. A good friend just had their original Suite band brakes replaced with disc brakes. After towing with the discs, he said he would never tow again without disc brakes, because they stop so much better. Our RE3 has discs, and I have gotten on them hard a couple of times. Great stopping power

Coincidentally, many, if not most, of those I have met who use the HDT's, for 5er TV's, are former truckers who would drive nothing else, and who are sources of good experience and help for anyone considering getting a larger tow vehicle.

FWIW! 8)

[Gemstone]

Someone mentioned a concern about the tow vehicle stopping 19,000lbs, I am not sure I understand that concern, because fifth wheels are designed to stop themselves. If you have a good brake controller, and good brakes on the 5er, then the 5er should stop itself.


Yes, and I'm sure that given enough pavement, the Dodge and trailer would eventually stop. We've all read about someone who was literally pushed through an intersection because there was not enough braking power on a light duty truck even with properly applied trailer brakes.
My point in sharing the story was to encourage folks to do more homework than a lot of us have done...prior to purchase. And that I personally do not feel safe pulling 19K with the previously mentioned Dodge, even 'tho the truck will do it, and slow down nicely, even while being 4K overweight. Will a light duty (1 Ton) truck do the job, probably....will it do the job safely ? In my opinion, probably not.

Regards
Gemstone

[sigo'suite]

Historically, this has always been the most contentious topic on the "Forum".

In reality, it is probably best summed up by the insertion of this statement: "IN MY OPINION!"

[Motor31]

Historically, this has always been the most contentious topic on the "Forum".

In reality, it is probably best summed up by the insertion of this statement: "IN MY OPINION!"

I have to agree here, particularly when folks continue to ignore the published GVW and GCVW of the tow vehicle in question. The numbers from the manufacturer are out there and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to apply them. That's where opinion and actual certification collide and you are left with the choice of believing opinion or the folks who built and certified the tow vehicle through the Dept of Transportation. They are also the only ones who can make a change to the GVW and GCVW. After market add on's like chips, air bags and helper springs do not change the figures or add additional capacity that the vehicle was not certified for.

The nice thing about having the numbers and understanding the ramifications is not having to go to a PM to get your side across so as to not have it rebutted or relying on derogatory terms such as "weight police" to make a point.

Look at the numbers, get actual weight from a scale, contact your local DMV if you like for additional info. Just get the real world info and not opinion to base a decision regarding your safety on.

Semi trailers also have their own brakes, but a semi with a trailer does not stop as short as a semi alone same for a light duty tow vehicle vs the PU with a trailer. Weight plus momentum still have to deal with friction of the brakes and the coefficient of friction of the pavement. If you exceed the weight capacity you are losing braking power as the weight will still be pushing.

[bstark]

Learning's original post was requesting help with what to do with the 250 they presently own to hopefully avoid moving UP to a 350 (presumably dually) truck and they certainly got an eyeopener of info back.

JMHO, but sometimes the original poster gets forgotten in our rebuttels to each other's posts regarding little trucks vs big trucks!

To be fair to "Learning", he/she is probably at the very same juncture we all were at one time or another. Those of us with larger trucks would do well to remember in many cases unscrupulous dealers/salesmen do a team blitz on folks entering the RV'ing lifestyle which tends to overwhelm the unsuspecting.

The facts are irrefutable:
/ Detroit generated tow ratings assigned to pick-ups generally exclude ANY of the big three 350/3500 series and down from towing the heavier Doubletree products loaded for real world usage.
/ There are literally "thousands" of folks towing those types of heavy trailers with 250/2500 series and up pick-ups quite successfully and perhaps (for them) even comfortably.

How do we reconcile these two "polar opposites" when posting on these forums? Firstly, JMHO, we need to remember that we are all kindred spirits enjoying RV'ing.

Providing useful and accurate info need not take a "lecturing-to-the-ignorant" bent, but rather an offer of an alternative then sit back and wait for requests for further info to support that alternative. No request should equate to no more aggressive flood of info!

Foregoing has been my OPINION only and is offered in the sincere hope that as RV'ers we have mutual respect as one of our basic tenets.

[JohnandMarla]

We have a 2006 3500 Silverado dually. Last summer we went over a 11,000 and some pass in Colorado. It did an awesome job of towing and braking. We have the trailair system and as long as we keep the appropriate amount of air in it there is no bucking-not enough air and it makes for a miserable ride. (We keep ours around 65 but this is determined but how much weight you have) We are very careful not to overload the MS.

[learning]

Wow Motor 31,
You guys are just too cool. I just had a computer repair whizz check out my laptop and lo and behold, he said it was the $60+ Norton Internet Security that buzzed my computer so he took it off and loaded the AVG and Wala!! (spelled wrong I know) it was fixed. What a miracle.
That was so very wonderful of you's to give me the information..
May you be blessed in all you do.
Sincerely
Still learning

[keithandpenne]

Our 05 36TK3 had been safely pulled a little over 18000 miles since we took delivery by our factory stock '96' Dodge 3500 - 4x4 - V10 - auto trans with 3:73 gears.

It pulled the load very easily but I did not like the braking ability of the unit. It originally had a cheap brake controller which I replaced with a Prodigy and it made day and night difference, but stopping was still sort of "will it or won't it."

Defensive driving and "luck" helped get us safely to where we are today.

I have followed the HDT forum for almost 5 years, while attempting to encourage my co-pilot into seeing the virtues of a big toter. Bottom line, she did not want to drive one and would not become a "chauffeured" or "stay at home" lady, even though an HDT could replace our old Dodge for half of the cost of a new puck-up.

I have looked at and driven the new Dodge 4500. Like the Cummins and 6 speed trans with the factory exhaust brake. Wish I could have hooked up to a 5th wheel and pulled it a few miles. Nice truck but it is still a cab-chassis and the gross combined weight rating with their best (deepest) gear (4:10) it is still rated 7000 lbs under the F450 and the out the door price after adding a bed or box is way more than the Ford. The back seat area of the Ford is huge compared to the Dodge unless you go to the Mega cab which only comes with the short box. Hopefully, Dodge will see the light for next year.

Bottom line, after our first pull with our new F450, from KC to Ft Worth, I could not believe the difference in how it handled the same trailer and load we had been pulling. The Ford factory brake controller worked very smoothly (better than the Prodigy) and sure gave us a higher comfort level, especially after I35W traffic came to a quick halt in Ft Worth and the rig came to a very quick and controlled stop. We also noted that there was very little of the previously experienced rough road "chuck or chugging" we had experienced on the same roads, and we attributed it to the longer wheel base from the crew cab which changed the roads "harmonics."

For those who are using a truck that is under-rated for the load your pulling, I would only suggest you find someone who will let you make a "test drive" pulling your trailer with a truck that is rated for your trailer and its load. I think you too will be as surprised as we were at the new level of comfort and safety it will provide.

[Motor31]

It is not necessary to have an HDT to tow a larger MS unit. It's a bit of overkill in capacity for RV uses. The choice to go that large isn't just based on the capacity of the tow vehicle but the cost analysis as well. It is still cheaper to find a used but still very serviceable HDT for less than the cost of a 3/4 ton Pick up. That does not mean that your circumstances will be best served by that kind of vehicle. It works best for a full timer vs a part time RV'er.

What is important to have is enough truck to tow the trailer with while staying inside of the tow vehicles ratings for GVW and GCVW. There are several to choose from in models like the 450 / 4500 up to the 650 / 6500 (depending on brand) as well as the smaller "big trucks" like the Freightliner and International MDT's that are capable of handling the larger trailer that we love to use. It does make a difference in safety and comfort when you are towing inside the capacity of both the tow vehicle and trailer limits.

[WildJohn]

I agree completely Mike. Another point that is sometimes overlooked.. These trucks are designed from the ground up for driver comfort. EVERY time I drive mine I am amazed as to where the miles went.. trips I usually dread are over before I even realize it. And at times I am disappointed that they are over.. The cities just seem to be closer together for some reason.. I take her out to "stretch her legs" and when I get home I think.."Was that a long enough drive for her?" No matter how long it was.
Happy Camping... all the time
John

[47hook]

Posts of this nature usually include braking ability. After buying our 1st 5er, I sent an email to the axle/brake manufacture touching on this subject:

"Thank you for visiting the Dexter Axle website and sending us your question.

The Dexter brakes are designed to stop the maximum rated capacity for each axle series. For example: Dexter's 8000 pound brakes (12-1/4" x 3-3/8") are designed for stopping 8000 pounds. The stopping distance is a very complicated set of formulas based on many variables. I can fax the formulas to you and provide you with the sample brake torque output curve your particular brake (by size and type - electric or hydraulic). You would have to fill in your Static Loaded Radius of your tires, the number of brakes, the brake torque at a specific input (voltage or PSI), pounds of wheel load, the traveling velocity and the time that you are actuating the brakes in order to calculate your stopping distance. There is no simple table for all these variables.

The capacity rating of the running gear will be based on the weakest link of the whole system. The trailer designer may have selected a 7000 pound beam and bearings, but only selected our 6000 pound brake assemblies (instead of the 7000 pound brakes), and only put 2600 pound rated leaf springs on the axle. This would result in only a 5200 pound axle assembly rating, NOT including the wheel and tire rating. This example would have 6000 pounds of potential stopping force but only 5200 pounds of carrying capacity.

Christine Bachman
Application Engineer"

Pretty definitive, in My Opinion. The trailer brakes will stop what they are rated at. So will the TV. So, with my original TV, I had at a minimum of 9200#'s for TV, 16K for 5er = 25,200# capacity for a GW of under 24K. Overkill. Now, I have 11,400 TV, 16K 5er = 27,400#'s for about 25K. Overkill. And, no matter how much braking capacity you have, some fool will pull out in front of you and you may not have enough room to stop, even in your brand new Z06 Corvette. Now what? Let me know if you get those formulas and what you come up with. Oh, and let me know if your owner's manual lists your stopping distances. My old 92 Corvette, IIRC had some performance numbers but they had the disclaimer of being done by a professional on a race track. Leaves me out.

I am also, as so many of us are, waiting for a definitive law that covers what we are discussing: civil weight restrictions for RV's. Website? State and #? Anything? Or is it just an opinion, even those that have the best interest at heart for our fellow RV'ers.

Again, as I have said many many times. Not saying anyone should exceed anything. Know what you weight, what your limits are/capabilities, and be careful. You are much more likely to be hit by lightening or hurt in an auto accident than be in an accident because you are a touch overweight...your TV/5er...not you...

[rverdlm]

All that info on trailer brakes is very interesting, but the limiting factor is the 4 patches of rubber that meet the road. No matter how good the trailer brakes are (and IMHO regular trailer brakes are almost worthless) you're still trying to stop 18,000 pounds with 4 little patches of rubber. Your 6 to 8000 pound truck will have 4 or 6 or in my case 10 bigger patches of rubber.

[Motor31]

This was interesting.

"The Dexter brakes are designed to stop the maximum rated capacity for each axle series. For example: Dexter's 8000 pound brakes (12-1/4" x 3-3/8") are designed for stopping 8000 pounds."

I have 8,000 lb axles on my rig. The rig weighs 18,500 so the brake capacity by their own statement is not up to the weight of the trailer. This would be more so for those who have an Elite since they are provided with a GVW of 20,000 lbs and still only have two 8000 lb axles.

That's all assuming that the trailer manufacturer contracted with Dexter to provide 8000 lb rate brakes on those 8000 lb axles and that they are working to full capacity with a fully functional set of wires and a brake controller that is sending sufficient signal to the brakes for electric brakes. Similar conditions will have to be met for the air over hydraulic brakes. Then other factors such as coefficient of friction for the tires, pavement as well as grade and curvature of the roadway will have to be taken into consideration as well as that the trailer is not certified to stop on it's own.

They are also did not give stopping distances for the unit or any indication of how well the brakes will stop the trailer. Technically, according to the wording they had there, as long as the trailer stopped sometime, the brakes are adequate.

[rdunk]

Double post deleted! :(

[rdunk]

Quote Motor31: ""The Dexter brakes are designed to stop the maximum rated capacity for each axle series. For example: Dexter's 8000 pound brakes (12-1/4" x 3-3/8") are designed for stopping 8000 pounds." I have 8,000 lb axles on my rig. The rig weighs 18,500 so the brake capacity by their own statement is not up to the weight of the trailer. This would be more so for those who have an Elite since they are provided with a GVW of 20,000 lbs and still only have two 8000 lb axles".
.................................................. .....................

Mike, I would assume that we need to be looking at weight on the axles, rather than weight of our trailer, relative to Dexter's axle rating stopping capacities. You and I have 4,000+ lbs of pin weight, which is not carried by the trailer axles, when towing. I assume the TV is responsible for stopping the weight it carries on its axles, which would include the pin weight.

If these "assumptions" on my part are right, then, we are pretty much ok with our 8,000lb axles, and what they have to stop.

Of course, this is why trailer mfgrs. can design in 7000lb axles for 16k GVWR trailers, and 8000lb axles for 18K GVWR trailers. Also, even when not towing, the axles should not be over weight, because the front jacks (and rear jacks) handle a significant share of the weight load.

FWIW!