How hard to install a Progressive HARDWIRED EMS?

[JimGnitecki]

How hard is it to install a Progressive Industries HW50C 50 Amp Hardwired Electrical Management System with Remote Display into a DRV Tradition?

The attraction of the "Hardwired" version is that it is impossible, or at least pretty difficult, for someone to steal it. But, if getting to the necessary connecitons on a DRV Tradition model would be too difficult, I'd plan on going with a "portable" version.

Can anyone here answer the question?

Jim G

[MooseSuite]

I hired an electrician, had the job done in less than 30 minutes on our 2007 MS. Pigtailed into wiring at the plug in junction box. Did not buy the remote but suggest you do as it provides bypass switch. Handy when you use a genset.
Our 2014 factory installed. A must have device.

[JimGnitecki]

Thanks, Moosesuite. I had not thought of hiring an electrician or RV tech to do it, but if all it took was 30 minutes, that makes a lot of sense to make sure it gets done right!

Jim G

[wingnut60]

I put the 50amp PI surge protector w/remote display in my '05 just this spring--it is in the same compartment as the plugin and where the cord is stored. It took me the better part of two days to do it as I was afraid of wiring something wrong--this time included several breaks to think things thru. The 50a cord stiffness and short bends took most of the time, and I had to move the original plugin in rearward to make room for the pigtail to connect the plugin to the surge protector.
If your Tradition has the plugin in the cord storage compartment, I can take pics of the placement and post them--if yours is a direct mount plugin on the side/rear, won't be much help.
I also ran the remote display into the service panel where all the tank and battery info is displayed--had to order a longer connection wire from PI ($35) to reach far enough. You will have to drop some of the belly covering to run it this way. Couple things about the remote readout: if you only get the one without the remote, you can probably watch it when you plug into the pedestal; if you get the remote, you can't see the display until you walk back into the trailer, but I can watch the amp draw of the different legs as I turn on the different appliances/draws and that info is enlightening, to say the least.
As to ease of installation--after doing mine, helped a friend with a MH do same 2 weeks later and it took only about 2 hours. Getting the SP wire routed nicely inside the unit itself was really the hard part--not much room to work with. Pics that come with the instructions show some really nice wiring work--must have been a professional that did the wiring for the pics.
I think I got the best price from Tweetys.com in Boerne, TX
Joe

[JimGnitecki]

Thanks, Joe.

Jim G

[Stripit]

I installed mine in the power compartment without the remote unit. It was about a little less than 1 hour start to finish. Only one time did we go through one night in an rv park without power as the unit was not happy with what the park was delivering and shut us down. I was going to install a bypass switch in case that ever happened again so even though the parks power was low or fluctuating, we could still have run the tv or a fan, but when it shuts down, nothing goes through. I felt that unit was a MUST have accessory to our trailer and with the non remote unit when I plugged in I watched each line power and knew if we had good or bad power. I didn't stay at Holiday Inn and would never say I was an electrician, but the directions were very good and I felt after reading them I could do the install. If your not sure of what you can do, then hiring an electrician is not the end of the world and do what makes you feel comfortable. As Wingnut said, your going to have to drop, or cut into the bottom covering to gain access to run the remote wiring and that will be troublesome and time consuming. If your going to hire the electrician doing that work before he/she arrives will save you money.

[terry and jo]

Ours was installed last year (year 3 of our full time living in the MS) and is in the area near the water pump and transfer switch in the underbelly. It was done by Slade at Rolling Retreats when we stopped there to have it done.

We should have had it done upon purchase of the unit. We might have saved our first Whirlpool washing machine. With the unit in the underbelly, the wire to the remote is relatively close.

Terry

[billr]

What Stacey said. Put mine in no issues in panel area inside. Short wire run in and out of panel.

[JimGnitecki]

This instalaltion sounds not that bad, but I don't like the idea of cutting the underbelly cover, and I don't like the idea that I lose power to EVERYTHING if the pedestal we happen to plug into has a fault, even though the fault might be of no concern to, for example, lights or other non-sensitive equipment.

Is there any REASONABLY effective way to secure the portable unit? (The provided locking tab seems pretty flimsy, and would likely deter only an amateur. Any large hand cutter would go through that tab like butter I would think.

Jim G

[Stripit]

This instalaltion sounds not that bad, but I don't like the idea of cutting the underbelly cover, and I don't like the idea that I lose power to EVERYTHING if the pedestal we happen to plug into has a fault, even though the fault might be of no concern to, for example, lights or other non-sensitive equipment.

Is there any REASONABLY effective way to secure the portable unit? (The provided locking tab seems pretty flimsy, and would likely deter only an amateur. Any large hand cutter would go through that tab like butter I would think.

Jim G
For the most part, rv parks are safe and loss like that is uncommon. But the truth is a thief will take what they want and if they feel they can, a chain or cable will only slow them up a bit. Having the external unit would easily allow you to remove the unit should it be doing its job and saving your trailer from damage ( or if it thinks there is a problem). You could then just use the supplied power and hope that no issue comes up with low/lack of power to your trailer. In all the years I full time traveled, I never lost anything from my rv site that I didn't leave and drive off and forget to pick up.

[Chandler]

I have one to install also. I have been debating on whether to install it in the plug in compartment or by the breaker panel. Does the wire run without any breaks or connections to that area?

[wingnut60]

The main feed wire from the compartment plugin goes to the back of the circuit breaker panel--can't be any non-breakered 120volt outlets/appliances in the trailer. Don't know which unit you have, but I don't think I would have wanted to interrupt the main feed anywhere near the breaker panel due poor access in my trailer.
Joe

[Chandler]

I was just thinking it might be easier to install in the wire run before the breaker panel. Mine is an O5 as also.

[billr]

To wire into main panel is straight fwd. The unit can be located in the basement near the panel area. No issues as long as you use the proper size wire. Just disconnect the wire from the main input in the panel and connect to the surge unit "In" then using a proper sized wire to run from surge unit "Out" to the main panel input where you disconnected the original feed.

You do need to be familiar with this work or best to have an electrician do it.

[terry and jo]

This instalaltion sounds not that bad, but I don't like the idea of cutting the underbelly cover, and I don't like the idea that I lose power to EVERYTHING if the pedestal we happen to plug into has a fault, even though the fault might be of no concern to, for example, lights or other non-sensitive equipment.

Is there any REASONABLY effective way to secure the portable unit? (The provided locking tab seems pretty flimsy, and would likely deter only an amateur. Any large hand cutter would go through that tab like butter I would think.

Jim G

Jim,

I'm posting a picture below of our basement area. In the photo, look to the center right and behind the sliding door. You'll see a piece of plywood that has a number of components mounted on it. The square box you see is the transfer switch that is at the very end of the plywood. When our Progressive Industries unit was installed, Slade mounted it near that square box. Then it is close to the closet inside where he mounted the remote display.

I wasn't there to watch when he was installing the PI system, so he might have moved some of the other components on the plywood to the side to make room for the main unit.

http://www.5thwheelforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_19908_0_762bb3cb03c957c07c57ddd1ffd3766d.jpg (http://s1190.photobucket.com/user/TerryandJo/media/Our%20New%20Home/Mobile%20Suites%20Basement%20Photos/DSC_8338.jpg.html)

[JimGnitecki]

Jim,

I'm posting a picture below of our basement area. In the photo, look to the center right and behind the sliding door. You'll see a piece of plywood that has a number of components mounted on it. The square box you see is the transfer switch that is at the very end of the plywood. When our Progressive Industries unit was installed, Slade mounted it near that square box. Then it is close to the closet inside where he mounted the remote display.

I wasn't there to watch when he was installing the PI system, so he might have moved some of the other components on the plywood to the side to make room for the main unit.

http://www.5thwheelforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_19910_0_762bb3cb03c957c07c57ddd1ffd3766d.jpg (http://s1190.photobucket.com/user/TerryandJo/media/Our%20New%20Home/Mobile%20Suites%20Basement%20Photos/DSC_8338.jpg.html)

Thanks, Terry, but it looks like the Tradition 375KPS has its transfer switch way up in the driver side battery compartment, in the "ceiling" of the compartment, above the vented battery box, where access for an amateur like me would be very difficult. :( Dan showed me the location of the transfer switch yesterday when I asked about the "Gen prep" arrangement.

Jim G

[Chandler]

To wire into main panel is straight fwd. The unit can be located in the basement near the panel area. No issues as long as you use the proper size wire. Just disconnect the wire from the main input in the panel and connect to the surge unit "In" then using a proper sized wire to run from surge unit "Out" to the main panel input where you disconnected the original feed.

You do need to be familiar with this work or best to have an electrician do it.

Thank you Bill and Joe for the info. I'm familiar with doing this kind of work so I think I can handle it. I just wanted to be sure about putting it in the right place. If I have trouble I'll sure be asking for some help.

Jerry

[wingnut60]

If billr says it can be done near the main panel, then it can. It certainly would negate the need for a longer remote display connector wire as I had to have. Not sure I even considered it, just focused on the storage compartment--should have thought more about it.
I think billr also changed some of the loads on the panel to even out the distribution of power throughout the trailer--DRV puts way too many high-draw appliances on the same leg of the 50amp feed. This would help to allow more appliances to be run at the same time if you end up having breaker tripping when running both ACs and the micro, etc.
Joe

[billr]

No need to mess around near the Gen auto transfer sw. Just install by the main panel that way is also protect you from the genny too.

The main panel had to come off the wall a bit to work on it but only had to disconnect the main feed that has to change. The length and restrictions on the main feed wiring may dictate where the unit is mounted as you do not want to extend the feed. I put in a diff brand unit and by sliding the main panel up a tad it fit below it in same area. But with the PI with remote you can place it behind the wall above the furnace area.

Yes, as Joe says, the distribution of circuits on mine was all wrong. I did have to correct it. I would hope this was an isolated instance and they are not still repeating this blunder on units these days.

Mine has a key to bypass the protection Only ever used it once in 10 yrs when it was a intermit low voltage issue and I verified it. Of course not running large users.

A friend just advised that he blew up his MW. computer, converter and small appl's when he had a rev voltage shown on his portable surge unit and tried with out unit is when everything was damaged. This was after the post wiring was repaired and still showed rev voltage. They thought the unit was bad. Turned out the post was miswired and he was first to use it.

Just an indication of how critical it is to have the protection all the time and never bypass it unless you are absolutely sure what you are doing.

Ours has saved us at least 4-5 times. Things like an open neutral, mis wired posts, low voltage (most common) One time the post had a hot breaker, melting on one leg of the 50. They lost the panel and wire. It was likely way gone when we got there just the lucky ones that had the unit kick the power off. I could smell the burnt offering from the post! Another time a loose wire on a post breaker caused low voltage. They didn't believe me but looking inside proved the issue.

Here at the park, we see all kinds of things going on, sometimes things just fail. Breakers, wires get hot then get loose then get hotter! We run our main panel feeds each year to check all the wiring and check torque on connections. We find issues then but hopefully prevent breakdowns later. Outlets on posts over time need to be replaced. they wear out. Especially the 30 amps. Everyone with 50amp units want to save a few bucks and run on 30 put heavy loads on the 30s. ha Well not everyone, but you get the idea.

Ok enough of my rant...You get the idea to run one. ha

[JimGnitecki]

Thanks, Billr. I had no idea that park post problems were THAT prevalent, but given outdoor location, and constant plugging and unplugging, it makes sense.

In fact, on our current RV resort cabin (park model), which stays connected ALL the time, the plug did burn out once about 2 years ago, and the resort owner had to replace it. When that happened, I wondered if running at lower voltage that undoubtedly preceded the actual failure might have been what killed the electronic coffeemaker, which mysteriously died about the same time.

Jim G

[SrFox]

I got lazy and changed my mind and went portable and glad I did. Three time this past season we had bad power in our assigned site so I just took the portable on a search for good power before moving the rig. As far as security I lock it to the post with a bike lock cable.

[Maverick]

This instalaltion sounds not that bad, but I don't like the idea of cutting the underbelly cover, and I don't like the idea that I lose power to EVERYTHING if the pedestal we happen to plug into has a fault, even though the fault might be of no concern to, for example, lights or other non-sensitive equipment.

Is there any REASONABLY effective way to secure the portable unit? (The provided locking tab seems pretty flimsy, and would likely deter only an amateur. Any large hand cutter would go through that tab like butter I would think.

Jim G

If you install a bypass switch in, why install the unit at all? It shuts off for a reason. Lights are wired and run though your power unit. Fry that and your out some bucks. Or if you forget to flip the switch back to "protection mode" and you could lose THOUSANDS of DOLLARS! Under NO circumstances would I install a bypass switch.

[terry and jo]

Maverick,

If one has a separate generator like a Honda or a Yamaha, in order for the generator to get power to the coach, one has to bypass the system. We have the hardwired unit and I like to "exercise" the generator every month or so, and if I wish to do so, I have to bypass.

There is something about a conflict between the generator and the PI system, but I can't remember exactly what the phrase is for that.

Terry

[JimGnitecki]

Maverick,

If one has a separate generator like a Honda or a Yamaha, in order for the generator to get power to the coach, one has to bypass the system. We have the hardwired unit and I like to "exercise" the generator every month or so, and if I wish to do so, I have to bypass.

There is something about a conflict between the generator and the PI system, but I can't remember exactly what the phrase is for that.

Terry

It may be that the PI system detects the lack of a proper ground with a generator providing the input power. Remember, the generator is NOT actually grounded unless you run a grounding wire from it into the ground!

The portable generator manufacturers skirt this issue by telling you in your user manual to "consult a qualified electrician".

Jim G

[billr]

No issues running a Honda 2000 or 3000 with our hardwired Surge Gaurd. Unit.

[terry and jo]

Still don't remember what the phrase was, but the ground is probably what it was. I think it is because our Honda has a "floating ground." Your comment about that reminded me that on other forums, I've read where they recommended getting a "bonded plug" to plug into an outlet on the generator that solves that problem.

I found this on another forum that was for boaters (sailors?), where one obviously can't install a ground for the generator: "Cheapest fix is to make a neutral/ground bonding plug by running a wire from the ground to the neutral in a new three prong plug. Mark the plug so you will remember what it is. plug this plug into one of your outlets on the generator and the surge protector will see it as grounded."

Here's a link to an article on it.

Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding (http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/)

Terry

[JimGnitecki]

Still don't remember what the phrase was, but the ground is probably what it was. I think it is because our Honda has a "floating ground." Your comment about that reminded me that on other forums, I've read where they recommended getting a "bonded plug" to plug into an outlet on the generator that solves that problem.

I found this on another forum that was for boaters (sailors?), where one obviously can't install a ground for the generator: "Cheapest fix is to make a neutral/ground bonding plug by running a wire from the ground to the neutral in a new three prong plug. Mark the plug so you will remember what it is. plug this plug into one of your outlets on the generator and the surge protector will see it as grounded."

Here's a link to an article on it.

Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding (http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/)

Terry

That makes sense, Terry, but introduces another "problem".

All the guides to wiring an RV make a big deal about NOT connecting the neutral bus in the loadcenter (i.e. the electrical panel on the RV) to the ground bus in the loadcenter, as you would normally do in a home. Connecting the neutral and ground via the special plug, at the generator, achieves the same "prohibited" connection, just at a different point in the overall circuit.

I am no electrician, but I THINK maybe the reason for this prohibition on connecting the neutral and ground is that if you get a ground fault in the RV (leakage of current too small to flip off the circuit breaker, but a leakage nevertheless), the separation of the ground from the neutral prevents YOU from becoming the "ground" when you step into or out of the RV, with one foot on the ground and one on the RV step. Again, I am not at all sure about this, but simply remember vividly the strong cautions to not make that neutral to ground connection.

Jim G

[terry and jo]

That could all be very true, Jim. I'm not an electrician either. However, I am glad that with all this said, I can turn "on" the bypass switch of the PI system's remote and still use the generator for power if necessary. I'm not sure whether any of the portable systems that are to look for all the power problems would allow that, but I guess one could just not use the portable.

Terry

[billr]

For portable units they make a lock that goes over the plugs and a cable can be added. That way you can't unplug it. Takes a regular paddle lock.

I still prefer hard wired for a lot of reasons. But each to thier own s they say.

Ref the grounding concerns on portable gennys. Literally a millions of portable gennys are used every day as they are for RVs, race haulers, farms, etc etc. and never hear of these concerns causing problems. I'm sure there are basis for this issue but not so much.

I have used gennys for 20 yrs and all good. I may just be lucky though ����

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

Ref the grounding concerns on portable gennys. Literally a millions of portable gennys are used every day as they are for RVs, race haulers, farms, etc etc. and never hear of these concerns causing problems. I'm sure there are basis for this issue but not so much.

I have used gennys for 20 yrs and all good. I may just be lucky though ����

I don't think you are particularly lucky! I think it is just that that particular type of incident is pretty rare, as is being struck by lightning, being the victim of a homicide, etc. But, electrical codes HAVE to consider, and try to prevent, even unlikely incidents, which is why the "rule" is there.

Jim G

[billr]

Wow. I'm still feeling lucky Ha. So that's what those pesky Elec codes are all about. Lol

[JimGnitecki]

Wow. I'm still feeling lucky Ha. So that's what those pesky Elec codes are all about. Lol

Interestingly, compliance with the electrical codes is, i'm almost certain, voluntary rather than required, for RVs. It IS mandatory for normal (permanent) "residences" and businesses, but RVs are NOT legally permanent residences, so they do not apparently have to comply.

Of course, most manufacturers comply anyway for purposes of reducing the obvious legal liabilities if they do not and someone gets injured or killed, and any licensed electrician will refuse to work on anything that does not meet code, for the same liability reasons.

When a home, apartment, or business is built, each step of the construction requires a separate inspection by a city or county inspector. Apparently, this is not required for RVs.

Now the RV manufacturers will tell you that they comply with RVIA standards, and that is evidenced by the RVIA sticker on your RV. But, the RVIA standards are industry association standards, not legal standards, and most importantly, they apparently do NOT include individual inspection of each individual RV built. This is why you can receive a brand new RV from a manufacturer on which some electrical defects, some plumbing defects, and some basic construction defects exist at the time of delivery.

Also, did you know that any RV that already has an RVIA sticker will still need to have more safety stuff added in order to be legally importable into Canada? (not just to visit of course, but to import "permanently"). This is because the Canadians view the RVIA standards as inadequate.

Jim G

[wingnut60]

What happened with the Domani?

[JimGnitecki]

What happened with the Domani?

Couldn't get a good enough deal on it. It had some problems, and the dealership wouldn't correct them at sensible cost.

Jim G