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Old 01-15-2018, 07:31 AM   #21
Cummins12V98
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^^^^^ that's GREAT!
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:17 AM   #22
Rockyhud
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After reading this thread I called Lippert, got a no hassle excellent response and have an appointment in April for them to do the work. If you have this issue definitely contact them.
Glad it's going to work for you as well. I talked with Joshua last Friday to see if they'd consider shipping the parts to a local RV service shop, to potentially save Lippert and me some $$. Long story short, Joshua explained they had tried this earlier and the results were generally not good. He explained this is not just a "parts swap" as the rams are significantly different requiring the frame mounts for the old rams be cut off the frame with a cutting torch or plasma cutter, the frame prepped for the new mounts and then welded on precisely, enlarging the holes through the RV body for the new rams to pass through, installing the new rams and finally installing new hydraulic lines and checking out the system. Joshua said in some of these earlier repairs at non-Lippert facilities, the shop labor soared to as much as 40 hours, making for a much costlier repair than anticipated and some cases not getting the parts installed properly too. I can certainly understand why Lippert doesn't want that to happen any more as that could impact their reputation.

That said, my wife and I have decided we'll definitely be making the trip to IN this spring/summer to get this done. Just haven't determined exactly when yet.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:10 PM   #23
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When I found out there were modifications needed to install the new jacks I decided that I did not want someone to do it that I doubted was familiar with the procedure. Lippert does this mod pretty frequently in their Customer Support facility in Goshen. We decided to take the trip to Lippert and am very happy we did. They were very professional and got us in and out on schedule.

We did spend three nights in a hotel (would have been only one but wanted to take unit to them the day before to avoid icy roads). We decided to spend one more night in a hotel to avoid having to set up an take down in the snow and ice. Yes, we went up there in December. Our issue became critical when the front jacks would not hold the unit up and we decided to go to Goshen immediately from Memphis (around 1200 miles r/t). They did the replacement as a goodwill repair and the only thing it cost us was fuel, hotel, and time for the trip. Worth every penny. Josh Northam is definitely the one to work with.

They said each of the new jacks are 12klbs each vice 5klbs for the old jacks. As such they extend and retract slower but still much faster than electric landing gear. I think you will be happy with the new installation.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:44 PM   #24
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^^^^^^^^
Josh is Da man!!!! The crew there in Goshen does an AWESOME job! We had ours done last June, they told us "possibly" two days but they managed it in just one. They did a VERY good job for us too.

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Old 02-18-2018, 06:48 PM   #25
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Update with good news

It's been a little over a month since my last posting about what we could do about our hydraulics. This will be a little long so bear with me if you want to see what we've decided and what the actual problems were.

So, after getting the approval from Lippert to replace the front rams and hoses, I decided to check out quite a few RV shops in the Colorado Springs vicinity to get a feel about how competent and professional they are. After checking out several I settled on Trailer Source RV Center to take our RV to and let them check it out and provide their best estimate on what the problem is and estimate of cost.

After a few days I got a call saying their master tech had come to the conclusion the rams were OK and the problem was leakage in the hydraulic hoses (either air in or fluid out or a combination of both) and estimated the cost to replace all hoses at close to $1500 to maybe as much as $1800. After mulling this over, considering the option to travel to Lippert as well as reviewing the findings and experience of stanleyz and his conclusion in his case that the rams needed to be rebuilt with new seals, top and bottom, I called Trailer Source back and told them I wasn't yet convinced the problem was leakage. I did acknowledge there is leakage as I had discovered this during my initial checkout of the RV in FL and conceded that while I am nowhere near being a hydraulics expert, I just couldn't rationalize how leaking hoses could cause the problem with landing gear dropping while the RV was in tow. So, I setup a visit with the master tech and the service manager to look at what they were proposing and discuss the testing that stanleyz had published.

During the onsite visit they went over their assessment that the problem was limited to the hoses connected to the front landing gear and one hose going to the vanity slide and the cost would possibly cost less than the $1500 estimate. I also brought a printed page with the procedure that stanleyz provided and passed that on to the service manager and master tech so they could read the whole thread. One important fact that registered with them and me was that the problem seemed to manifest itself while towing the RV and typically took half a day or more to cause the front landing gear to drop noticeably.

I was pleased with the fact both men weren't absolutely sure there conclusion was the only one and that they were open to hearing and using the test method that stanleyz wrote up. At that point they agreed to use the info from stanleyz to test the rams and also said they would get an accurate measurement of the hoses that they thought needed to be replaced. After a couple more days I got another call saying they had tested the rams and were more convinced the problem was a leakage issue. At that point I scheduled another visit to discuss this with them.

I arrived and soon was back in the shop talking with the master tech and seeing firsthand what he was recommending. It was at this point that he told me he and another tech ran the test procedure that stanleyz wrote up and determined from that test the rams and seals were not a problem - they did not drop at all during the test. He also told me he thought about the mention of taking half a day or more towing for the problem to manifest itself and thought, how could he duplicate the conditions of road vibrations that seemed to be a factor in causing the rams to drop. So, while the RV had all rams up, all slides in and with the all the weight on the wheels/tires and a couple of HD jack stands under the frame near the landing gear, he grabbed some hoses near the manifolds atop the pump and started shaking them to simulate road vibrations. He said it didn't take but a few seconds of this and the front landing gear started dropping. They used the hydraulic system to raise them back up and repeated the test and got the same results - rams started dropping after a few seconds of shaking the hoses.

Armed with that knowledge and seeing how willing the master tech was to use the troubleshooting stanleyz procedure to determine the root cause, I gave them the go ahead to get the cost estimate for all hoses he though were problematic. The next day I got a call saying the $1500 or less estimate would cover all expenses. So, after discussing the options with my wife of A), spending 4 days of travel to take the RV to Lippert (plus 1-2 days of killing time while in IN), spend a week of my vacation time doing this and spending about $1000 or more out of pocket to get the RV there and back (not to mention the possibility of costly incidents happening on the road) as well as figuring out how to deal with 2 lab dogs (1 being a 14-month old puppy), or B) we have Trailer Source do the repairs. We decided to go with option B and I called and gave them the go ahead to do the repairs.

They got busy and had the new hoses made locally and tested all to make sure there were no leaks and that the problem was resolved. They also made some changes in the hydraulics compartment that I thought were VERY good. First, the original configuration from DRV or Lippert had the pressure and return manifolds both connected to the pump AND suspended by and holding the manifolds and all the respective hoses supported by the single hydraulic fittings between the pump and respective manifold in position. This meant each pump to manifold connection had to not only provide a path for the fluid but also a mechanical support for the manifold and hoses and have to deal with all the vibrations these items would pass through to the fittings. Think of it this way - the single fitting is hard fastened to the pump and the mass of the manifold and several hoses connected to it have only the fitting holding them in place, absorbing and dealing with pretty much all vibrations they amass and pass back through to the fittings. I firmly believe that's why the fitting originally holding the pressure manifold was showing the most leakage. What Trailer Source did was to relocate both manifolds to nearby solid frame mount locations and use short hoses from the pump to each of the manifolds. Their solution, once I got to see it, was actually very logical and elegant and I believe will be a very effective and long lasting change.

The photos I've attached show what the hydraulic system looked like before and after. The first shows the original config with both manifolds connected only by their respective single fitting which supports the manifold and hoses and has to deal with any vibrations past to and through them. You can also see the ref fluid ring near the base of the fitting at the back, going to and supporting the pressure manifold. The next photos show where the manifolds and hoses are now located and the 2 short hoses that now connect from the pump to the manifolds. The rest of the photos show more of where both manifolds are located and connected. Also, during the short trip home with it (about 30 miles total) I was gratified to see the landing gear had not dropped any during that time so I'm pretty sure this is a done deal.

So, now that we've done the repairs locally I don't foresee the need to take the rig to IN to have Lippert do anything with it. That said, I still think it was a generous offer for them to cover the parts and labor charges for doing what they were proposing to do. And, if anyone has similar issues and can confirm the rams are the problem they should definitely get in touch with Lippert to see if they can get the same offer.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:55 PM   #26
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Thank you for the detailed description of the work--I will need to take a look at mine when I get home and see how it is configured. You may have just saved me the trip to LaGrange also.
Great pics to help show what was changed.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:06 AM   #27
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Did the shop come to a conclusion as to why when shaking the hoses it caused the rams to drop?
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:28 AM   #28
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I'm with porthole on this. It would seem that in replacing the two hoses one would be able to see where the fault was in the hose. Unless I'm mistaken, there could be only two things happen with a hose. Either air gets sucked into the system or fluid leaks out of the system. If shaking the control box causes it, then it also would seem that air would be allowed into the system rather than fluid leaking out.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:50 AM   #29
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Thanks so much for the great write up and pics!!!

I will show these to my Machinist/Hydraulics friend that will be rebuilding all 6 of my rams.

No expert at all but I think air getting in is the explanation based on the mentioned tests!
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:11 PM   #30
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Thanks for the detailed write-up Rocky (and pics!). I'm really impressed with the shop you found, somebody obviously knows their stuff! I'm glad you have resolved your problem, one way or another there was going to be out of pocket expense.

So happy your nightmare has come to a close!

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Old 02-19-2018, 12:55 PM   #31
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I'm with porthole on this. It would seem that in replacing the two hoses one would be able to see where the fault was in the hose. Unless I'm mistaken, there could be only two things happen with a hose. Either air gets sucked into the system or fluid leaks out of the system. If shaking the control box causes it, then it also would seem that air would be allowed into the system rather than fluid leaking out.
I should have been more detailed as the repairs weren't just replacing 2 hoses - it was 7 hoses total which includes the 2 short hoses to connect from the pump to the relocated supply and return manifolds. As for what kind of leaks there were, I know from my own inspections there was fluid leaking out and by extension I'm sure there was air leaking in as well, probably even more so and causing the problems. Most of the leakage was occurring at the hose crimp connections and not the fittings, which they told me in their experience is more common than with threaded fittings, provided the fittings aren't loose. The first photo of the original configuration in my previous post, shows the red ring of fluid at the base of one pump-to-valve block threaded fitting connection. This is one example of leakage where the threaded fitting probably was somewhat loose, due to the vibrations it had to endure. I have several more photos of drops of fluid collected on several hoses, on the bottoms of loops and more near the crimped connector areas - I just didn't include these.

Below is the service work that Trailer Source performed, taken from the invoice, verbatim. BTW, the final cost turned out being lower than their estimate as well, being $1355. All in all, I was impressed with the thorough and logical manner they used to troubleshoot the issue and the fact they were open to my (actually stanleyz's) inputs for testing and incorporated this in their troubleshooting process. I also want to thank stanleyz again for his nice write-up with more precise info to isolate and validate seal problems with the hydraulic rams. That, combined with the knowledge and skills of the personnel at Trailer Source, has me believing the hydraulic system issues this RV apparently had for quite some time have been remedied.

Service Performed (taken from the invoice):
"Tech found hydraulic lines leaking and valve blocks lose pressure in system. Hydraulic lines include 3 retract lines and 2 extend lines. Also found leaks at base of valve block - needs to be moved. Tech advised to move both valve blocks so that they are not resting on the connections and install 2 short hydraulic lines. Tech traced all hoses to destinations and measured for new hoses. Removed valve blocks from pump and relocated return valve block to square tubing above pump. Installed a piece of 4x4 block onto frame above hydraulic system then installed supply valve block onto 4x4 block. Tech had to make new wires for valves from pump solenoid. Started removing all hoses one at a time and replacing each one with new hose. Also installed the 2 short hoses from pump to valve blocks. Ran all hydraulic cylinders to remove air from the system. Tested system again to see if jacks moved. Jacks didn't move and there are no more leaks in system. Let system sit for 72 hours. No movement."
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:23 PM   #32
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Thanks for the detailed write-up Rocky (and pics!). I'm really impressed with the shop you found, somebody obviously knows their stuff! I'm glad you have resolved your problem, one way or another there was going to be out of pocket expense.

So happy your nightmare has come to a close!

Dan
I'm with you on believing I found a really quality shop here. From this experience I would highly recommend them to anyone needing work on their RV while in the Colorado Springs area. Another thing I forgot to mention was their warranty coverage that I'm also impressed with. Their warranty time frame for the parts is 90 days and they warranty their labor for 1 year! The labor coverage really surprised me as I wasn't expecting it to be that long. Just indicates to me they are very confident in how well they perform their work.

We were also pleased the final cost wasn't but a little over what we estimated for travel expenses to and from Lippert's facilities. This, long with the fact we didn't have to make a trip that would have impacted our lives and efforts in getting our house and property ready to sell this spring/summer AND I didn't have to use a week of vacation time off from work. All in all it seems to be a win-win situation for us.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:27 PM   #33
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Thanks, Steve. I'm sure those of us who have been around RV's and such will agree $1355.00 seems like a very fair price for the work performed.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:05 PM   #34
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DRV claims they went to different jacks on 2017 and newer models. Has anyone with a 17 or newer unit had any problems with leaking jacks? Thanks.

Dave
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:09 AM   #35
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They are different. I have heard of no issues.

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Old 02-22-2018, 10:43 AM   #36
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I have no experience with 2017 hydraulic rams and I too haven't heard of any issues, but what I would add is that rams and seals aren't the only items to consider as the cause of landing gear and stabilizers dropping or just not holding as they're supposed to. The photos I've attached were taken before the repairs to our rig. If you look closely at the hose ends with red fluid drops on the bottom you'll see there is no red fluid around the threaded fittings where they attach to the mating connector - only the crimped area of the hoses. The crimps on these hoses had either not been crimped properly originally, which I doubt, or the hose material and/or crimp slowly degraded over time, which I believe to be the case, allowing tiny paths for the fluid and air to leak.

Having worked with my dad on our family farm in my youth - running tractors with multiple implements year after year - I recall seeing hydraulic hose seepage leaks near the hose ends occasionally. We didn't think too much of it at the time since they were just slow seepage and figured the harsh environment to be the main reason for them. Looking back I think the frequent use of the hydraulic rams (raising and lowering implements numerous times a day), along with the hot and dirty environment and age of the equipment, would definitely take a toll on the quality of the hoses and crimped ends. Our RV hydraulic systems don't get used nearly as often nor work in as harsh an environment as farm equipment but they still have high pressure applied and endure vibrations during travel times, so we shouldn't be too surprised to see them degrade over time.

Just something to consider if anyone is experiencing issues with their RV hydraulic system.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:30 PM   #37
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"nor work in as harsh an environment as farm equipment"
Steve, that statement made me think and laugh about working and spending time on my friends' farms as a youth and watching the abuse that the old Massey-Fergusons and John Deeres went through, especially the ones with a front end loader. Those machines went through hell on a daily basis and came back for more. And on 1960's technology.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:12 PM   #38
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Yeah, I know what you mean - especially attaching "old" to the description. My dad was very frugal when it came to the farm equipment and what he bought and used was a testament to that. He had a liking for Allis-Chalmers tractors and up to a while after I started working with him the only tractor he had had absolutely NO "luxury" features. It had a hand crank up front for starting the engine, a lever operated clutch, no power steering or brakes, no cab to keep dust and heat out and no hydraulics - it just used manually operated implements that used a pull rope and cam to lift and drop the implement. The last and most modern tractor finally had electric start and a hydraulic pump to attach a ram to that was transferred from one implement to the other as needed. Neither of the tractors could pull more than a 3-bottom plow and that made plowing especially slow turning the ground over and finishing the job. Each time we'd go round the field, it seemed like the width of ground turned over on each pass was about as wide as a 19" lawn mower makes cutting grass. We always produced as much wheat per acre as anyone else - it just took longer getting the field prepped and sown. He always justified the old equipment, saying it got the work done and he didn't have enormous payments to the bank for fancy stuff, and that let him keep more of the earnings as a result. Hard to find fault with that.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:55 AM   #39
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Since I had the landing gear repairs done locally and am pleased with the results I decided I needed to contact Joshua at Lippert to let him know about the repairs and that we won't be using their offer to repair/replace the landing gear. While doing this I briefly explained what the local service center did to identify the faulty parts (hoses) and what they did to resolve the issue. Here's what he replied back.

"I'm glad that you were able to get this resolved semi-locally. Rest assured we would have, in fact, done the same to verify that there were not any faulty components that could mimic the landing gear failing as well. It would be a shame to go through such an invasive procedure, just to find out that it was not the jacks at fault. Some of the people I have spoke with do not understand this and throw fault on the jacks immediately. Thank you so much for your honesty and praise for this situation. Please keep us in mind for future service or even any upgrades you may seek. We are more than happy to help. Have a great day!"

First of all, I was impressed that he took the time to reply back and thank me for letting him know we wouldn't be needing their services. I also found it interesting his comment about some people not understanding how to troubleshoot and immediately blame the jacks instead of methodically finding the real cause of the problem. From this response it indicates, to me at least, Lippert would do a thorough assessment of the problem and take the proper steps to remedy the issue, instead of just throwing parts at the problem then seeing (hoping?) if that fixed it. From that I'd say anyone who doesn't have a known good service center nearby can be assured they'll get a quality repair if they decide to have Lippert take care of the issue(s).
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:56 PM   #40
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It would be interesting to hear from someone that has been at Lippert, for the jack repair, and see if all the hydraulic hoses were replaced or just the jacks.

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