Another Hehr Window Problem

[RickandJanice]

Just this past week we had the dual pane crank out vent window on our rear picture window completely separate. I do not mean leak and fog up, they completely separated and the inside one is about to fall out. Contacted both Hehr and DRV. DRV responded with a form to fill out for a quote. Hehr responded with a request for measurements and then a quote to replace it. So it is apparent that both DRV and Hehr are no longer standing behind their windows after warranty. The first one we had problems with was just out of warranty and was replaced at no cost and both companies were very helpful and apologetic.

It is just a real shame that after all the problems everyone has had with these windows that neither DRV or Hehr is willing to fix the problem or cover the replacement beyond a standard 2 yr. warranty. They both know there is a problem!! The cost of this window is only $22.50 which is allot cheaper than bad P.R. Guess good customer service is no longer available at either company.

[Cheif 2]

It is only the begining of the window problems you will have. I currently have four that need replacing and although Hehr provided the glass at their cost, by the time I had it shipped to Fla. it still was expensive. I will attempt to install them this winter when I return. I agree that with all the problems there are having with the glass they should be doing something more.

[BlueSkyRanch]

In Feb 2010 I attended a seminar at Lazy Days in Florida concerning window fogging. Lazy Days purchased the equipment necessary to reseal existing windows and here is a link to some customer commnets.

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=27479.0

When I was there, customers had very good things to say about their work.

Steve
2010 Mobile Suites 38TKSB3
2010 F350 King Ranch

[Charlie and Sue]

I've come to the realization that we will be stuck with inferior windows as long as we own these Mobile suites. To replace them with a better brand would be extremely costly, or should we just replace them with single panes and never have to replace them again with the same inferior window. Too bad we paid for dual pane and ended up with this mess. I have been satisfied with our unit other than this problem. Time for MS to step up and except responsibility for this. I wonder if the new units still have Hehr windows in them ? Don't think I'd buy another if so.

Charlie and Sue

[BlueSkyRanch]

I have a 2010 MS (May 2010) and it does not have Hehr windows and I have a fogged window. I agree with you that "Time for MS to step up and except responsibility for this." I also think it's about time the entire industry and most importantly, the suppliers stepped up and made it right.

[BlueSkyRanch]

What was the name of that movie with the famous line about the workplace, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore." I feel this applies to the RV industry and suppliers.

[porkchop]

Let me see if I understand this correctly.
You have a unit going on 5 years old.
DRV has already supplied a new window after your unit was out of warranty
You want them to replace your windows now when it is going on 5 years old
DRV is neglant for not bowing down and kissing your feet & you will never buy another one of their products because of it

Me thinks DRV is better off without you and your kind. See ya

[chevman]

Tiffin has problems on their window sweating and friend with a country is have the same. He told me about a shop in Apache juntion AZ that fixes windows for $75.00 a window.
chevman

[Charlie and Sue]

Porky, take it easy, going on the third set of windows in five years, getting alittie tired of it, your time will come. It's like replacing a part on your truck knowing next year or so you'll have to do it again because it's a repeat problem. Not very satisfying, is it ? Cool down.

Charlie and Sue

[Huck]

Let me see if I understand this correctly.
You have a unit going on 5 years old.
DRV has already supplied a new window after your unit was out of warranty
You want them to replace your windows now when it is going on 5 years old
DRV is neglant for not bowing down and kissing your feet & you will never buy another one of their products because of it

Me thinks DRV is better off without you and your kind. See ya

Porky,
Have you ever spent $100K for a RV that has the same recurring, pain in the ass problem? Or $100K for any RV?
No one asked anyone to kiss their feet! We just expect a accepable product for our $money$...

[wingnut60]

not sure why porkchop bothered to join just to put that answer in...
Wonder if he has a DRV product?
Joe

[Motor31]

Perhaps porkie is a DRV employee or dealer. We do know that the factory has monitored the forum for some time. There had been folks who worked for DRV (or MS back then) that were on the forum before.

[porkchop]

I have my second DRV now. I will be in Howe Tuesday morning to order my third. The biggest problem I have EVER had is with the front jacks 2 years ago. Happened to be in Michigan and called the factory. They sent me to Goshin to see Lippert. They replaced one cylinder. Been happy as a lark every since. I have been reading this blog for a year. I have noticed it's the same bunch of cry babies complaining about stuff all of the time. Do you not realize you are dragging these things down some pretty crappy roads? If you're not happy buy a different brand. That's what I did. Wish you luck.

[wingnut60]

porkchop,
I really wasn't aware that DRV only made these trailers to be towed on glass-smooth pavement. And some of the complaints are coming from buyers of 2010 models who probably haven't had much time to tow them down some "pretty crappy roads."

Which of the DRV models do you have now and its age?

Joe

[porkchop]

i currently have an 08 34SB3 that I have towed more than 60000 miles thru 49 states, most of Canada and a regretable portion of Mexico. I traded in a 06 38 for it in April 2008.
I did not say they were only made to go on smooth roads. I did mention that we have a bunch of crappy roads. and you have to consider that. A lot of the problems come from the roads, not the manufacture. I owned a trucking company for more than 40 years with almost 3 million personal road miles. I do know crappy roads.
I doubt that DRV's failure rate is any worse than any one else's. And I know it's better than the mass produced ones. And I have dealings with Paul Cross. I'm glad as hell he's no longer at DRV. Him being gone allows me to purchase another unit. I would not if he was still there.

[bstark]

Well that did it! Up to that last bit about Paul Cross I was content to just sit and read and ignore, but what the **** gives you the right to slang someone who's name is not even on any of these posts? Good grief, man did you just throw that in 'cause he told you kinda the same thing you're saying about people on here?

Whew, I think we'd all be better off just ignoring what you have to say as it's kind of obvious you don't really give it a lot of thought before pushing the "submit" clicky.

[porkchop]

Mainly because his name is used the same as God's on 50% of these posts. The vast magority of people who have delt with him do not agree. The moronic crap about having to run your new units thru his shop shows the lack of confidence in the dealers ability. My dealer in North Platte, NE is well qualified to do his own PDI. I will suggest the people arguing in favor of Paul doing all of the factory's work are getting compincated by him in some way.
I will post what ever I want, when I want. I am offering my personal opinion.. You do not have to read them and you do not need to agree. You want to keep making this personal, I'm up for it.

[terry and jo]

Now, what did I do with those "Chill" pills.

As of yet, being a first time purchaser of a Mobile Suites and not having had the chance to take it anywhere, I have NOT experienced any of the window problems. That is not to say that I won't have problems, but I still feel the need to chime into this thread.

Being a resident of Oklahoma, I can certainly say that porkchop has a point about the roads and how much damage to a rig that roads can have a factor in. If any of you have ever driven across Oklahoma, I think you can also attest to the fact that we have bad roads.

Just because someone posted an opinion other than someone else about Paul Cross isn't reason enough to take offense. Having been in jobs where I dealt with the public on a daily basis, including working and managing a retail store, I can attest that not everyone will have the same opinion of the same individual. Each of you are entitled to your opinion, based upon your experience with said individual. Apparently, porkchop had a different experience than others.

Now, with all due respect, I find it hard to believe that people want a retailer to "stand beside" their product well beyond the warranty period. Each of us has had the opportunity to decline to buy a product, based upon what we have heard about that company. And, believe me, on Fifth Wheel Forums we do hear a lot of complaints.

In spite of those complaints that I have heard in the past, I still chose to buy a Mobile Suites. In spite of those complaints, I would do so again. Will I someday regret those last two statements? Perhaps. But, I hope to continue to have the sense to stand back and consider ALL factors, not just because I was inconvenienced or had a bad part of on overall good product.

I have asked this question once before, but I'll repeat it again. Given similar prices between manufacturer's products, would any of us buy a DRV Suites product again? I ask that because I have heard a number of owners say that they would buy another DRV, or that they already have bought another one, in spite of any problems that they had in the past. The serial number on my unit is #5332. So I can presume that more than that have been sold over the years, yet we seem to hear complaints from less than 5 percent of that number of customers.

From a retailer's standpoint, while 5 percent or less is still not good, it also isn't bad, especially considering the complexity of the products.

If I have thus offended anyone, I'm sorry. It was not my intent to do so.

Terry

[porkchop]

Thank you Terry. That's the point I was trying to make. You said it a lot smoother.

Bill

[wingnut60]

At this point, porkchop certainly has the background to be a positive contributor to the forum discussions. A second-time owner, probably 65 or older and able to live comfortably, I gather from his reply. I would have accepted most of his comments at face value except for the strongly-worded way he put it, and with his lack of previous postings on the forum, it got my attention and I, too, felt like pushing back.

I have had little trouble with my 2nd-hand '05--the windows were replaced by Hehr recently without charge, but they sent no parts to space them vertically correct. Thus, I have an appt at DRV to re-glaze them soon. I also have an appt with Cross to do some mods to my kitchen counter that my wife wants to have done. So, guess I will find out first-hand about the service both DRV and Cross will provide.

But, it does seem that DRV has had its share of long-term recurring problems, maybe in reality probably no more than any other manufacturer.
The plastic elec/propane line supports for the slides come to mind--that should have been remedied the second year the complaints started coming in. Another is the "drop" by the hydraulic pump that happens every time I try to raise the front of the trailer. (on the fix list at DRV soon)--maybe they have been quick to fix/repair for some, but they don't seem to be proactive at changing known design faults...

As on most other forums, you hear most from the problems people have--we are not prone to just write a post telling what a wonderful unit we have. Keep up with any of the diesel forums to see what I refer to.

porkchop, hope you stay on and help all us make our trailers and DRV better.

Joe

[wingnut60]

On a completely lighter note----porkchop has 3 or 4 posts in this thread, how come his post count remains at 5?

Joe

[Charlie and Sue]

ouch! Porky, I have had work done by Paul and was very satisfied with his crew, I am now at the point of trading my unit for new. But haven't decided what yet, going to N.Y.S. show this weekend to look around.

Charlie and Sue

[porkchop]

I do apologise to every one I offended. I know I came out a little strong.
Sorry to all.
I know that DRV does make mistakes. I did not mean to imply that they don't. So does Microsoft, and the space shuttle. Still pretty good products though.
I do believe that feed back is necessary to inprove any product.
I have never been to Paul's shop and have no idea what kind of work his employees turn out. I do know that when he was at DRV he was a jerk. I had previously told my dealer that I would not buy another DRV because of him. I was happy to see him go. My dealer also sells several other very good brands. I feel it is the dealer, his shop and employees that really matter. Larry has never let me down. I called my dealer today and discussed having someone else do the PDI. He said that was part of his commission for selling the unit.
I think he is more than qualified to supply this service. Everyone in the chain has to make a profit, or they will not be there next time.
I have noticed on most of these forums the majority of people want more, and better quality.Me too. From all the manufactures. I'm sure the good ones would be more than happy to do that. It would improve their reps. But someone has to pay for it. McDonalds would probably want to pay double the wage and get better employees. No one wants to pay double the price though. We have to find a balance that makes us, as individuals, happy.

[RickandJanice]

WOW! This post really got out of control. :oops:

All I was trying to say was how disappointed I am in the way DRV and Hehr are now handling the window issues. I also find it disappointing that they were replacing windows out of warranty at no charges earlier this year and suddenly they are not. Depends on who is handling the claim? Customer service seems to change with the warranty reps. at both companies. Have worked with two other at DRV and one other at Hehr in the past and was never treated this cold or uncaring.

We bought our unit new from the dealer in '07 even though it is an '06. So it is not as far out of warranty as some may think. Yes, I understand that it is out of warranty and neither company has to do anything legally. I have followed DRV since their inception as a division of Sunnybrook. I have always believed in the quality of their design and construction. I just hate to see their suppliers hide behind their warranty when there is a problem that can't seem to be fixed.

I never said we would not buy another DRV. We did however, buy this unit for the "long haul" and have no intentions of buying another anytime soon. If we did, I would reconsider paying extra for double pane windows again. We would still buy a DRV because they are still the best product for the price and I still believe in their overall construction.

[bstark]

RickandJanice; how did it transpire that YOU are having to defend your position as stated with your posting? You have been given no relevant reason to explain your position regarding the windows in your rig.
These forums exist for the reasons of informing others of their problems and hopefully solutions to those problems.
A poster who assume the position that you are being unreasonable in your expectations is not unusual, however, it could have been put more delicately without the personal reference to "DRV being better off without those types of customers"! That is uncalled for and excusing that behaviour is also.

Reference to any individual regardless if it's Paul Cross or anyone else in relation to this topic is also inexcusable as is throwing out the admonishment that anyone "defending him is getting compensated for it"!
Good grief, all of this comes spewing forth and it's my post that gets described as "taking it personal".

Porkchop: way back when this forum first got off the ground we had a couple of vehement cheerleaders of the Doubletree product that would leap to the defense of the breed at the least little reference that the trailer's could stand some improvements 'quality wise'. They even managed to get two posters banned from the forum for posting much less in the way of criticism than we are witnessing today. I certainly hope we are not witnessing a rebirth of that mentality. Your excusing all of the above arrogant behaviour with the time worn "I'm entitled to my opinion" blanket coverage just doesn't wash and I'm entitled to my opinion also
.
This company does not need your defending of their product by castigating those who would post negatives. They have, and will continue to do well without your help in that regard.

[5thwheeler]

I am a great fan of lively discourse, but......................
we're getting WAY off topic.
So let's finish up this 'other' discussion, and take a big breath.

Those who wish to discuss the original Hehr window problem - please continue.

Thanks

[bstark]

Michael; you are of course correct and I'll tender my apologies to the O/P and also Porkchop for breaking one of my own rules of personal decorum.

[JOHN EVANS]

what was the topic again ?

[lnklatt]

We have a 2005 32TK3 with dual pane windows fogging. Individuals posting comments to this issue have indicated they replaced the windows themselves. Has anyone written a procedure on how to accomplish this task? If yes, I'd like to receive that information.

Of the folks that have had them replaced by a commercial shop or DRV what typical cost are we looking at? Most of the dual pane windows on our unit have fogged, so I expect this to be a significant cost.

[RickandJanice]

I have only replaced the vent windows so far. This does not involve removing the entire window and is very simple to do. If anyone needs directions on how to replace the vent window, please let me know. I'll let someone else try to explain how to remove the entire window. There area allot of postings on this forum and the S.O.I.T.C. forum but because I have not replaced an entire window, will not even try to explain any of it.

[wingnut60]

I did the rear window, the couch-side windows, the dinette slide windows, the desk window and the escape window. It is a relatively simple, but not necessarily easy, task. I am assuming you will be replacing the PANE only, not the window frame.

Just start with a smaller one first to get used to the process---get a small hook tool to get under the black rubber gasket at one of the lower square corners, and start pulling it out all the way around to the other end. Then pull out the gasket across the bottom. (This is for the upper, non-opening part--the crankout parts are replaced with the metal frames on them already). With the gaskets out of the grooves, be standing on a ladder/stool that allows you to be even with the window. Have a friend or DW inside and push outward on the top of the window carefully--the pane of glass will come out easily and you just have to catch it before it falls.
This was the easy part. You then have to clean off all the old sealant (glazing) material--but it kind of rolls up in balls if you start pushing it with a finger--sometimes you need a flat blade, but be careful, the aluminum frame is very soft and easy to gouge. Once the sealant area is clean, you are ready to apply the rope glaze around the window where you took off the old sealant. This is an odd material to get used to handling--it is in a roll with a paper between the rows. Start anywhere along the frame where the old sealant was and carefully unroll the rope--this is sometimes almost a 3-handed operation for a newbie--and be sure to work in the shade to keep the rope from getting sticky. Just be sure and get some of the rope along all the frame area. When you think you have a good seal all around the frame, you are ready to consider putting in the new pane.
Look closely at the bottom groove--there are spacers in the groove that are there to position the pane vertically--you need all new spacers and just put new ones in next to the old ones. Not enough spacers and the window will settle into the groove, leaving a gap at the top--even with new spacers, the big window in the rear ended up with a 1/2" gap that I had to fill with silicone to prevent leaks. Some of the windows also have side-to-side spacers.

The first window is the hardest, in that you are getting used to new things--if you were in the window business, you could do all the windows in about 2 hours. The rear window is the heaviest and needs two sets of hands outside to position it.

I did 7 windows over 2 days with very little help, but I am going to the factory next week to have them all repositioned to correct the tendency of the panes to settle to the bottom leaving a gap.

To do the crank-out portion is a little different, in that you are only working with mechanical items, not gaskets/sealants, since the crank-out windows already have the frames on them. Crank the window out, remove the 'c' clip on the hinge/arm, pry off the arm and lift the section out of the channel across the top. Reverse the process and you are done.
Getting the channels to match can be a hassle, but not too hard.

Whatever you do, DO NOT bang/hammer/pry on the aluminum frames of the crankouts as they bend easily. 2 of the ones I replaced are not closing correctly and have to be pushed in from the outside. Another item for DRV to fix.

The hardest part of all is getting the measurements correct--Tom Peck walked me thru that and caught a couple mistakes I made. If you get the windows sent to you, be sure and get an ample supply of spacers--twice what they say you need--and use them with enthusiam for numbers, or the new panes will settle.

Good luck.

I have some pictures that I had problems posting-----I could try to email them direct if anyone is interested. Send me you email address and I will try to get them sent back to you.

Joe

[berghild]

I have problems with windows too.
Pork Chop probably noticed over the last 3 years I have posted problems often....but I do it because I need some help that the forum can supply.....not to whine.
I love my "home" and would do it again....and sometimes it does seem that my rig is not a good advertisement. A lot of my problems have beens solved in the new units.
A few years ago when I ordered a Holiday Rambler the rep talked me out of dual pane windows....big mistake! At that time (2002) he spoke of how the seal fails because of the twisting and bouncing that these windows take. With the problems and all with these windows I would STILL order the dual pane windows. Cyndy

[JOHN EVANS]

we are currently having 2 windows replaced at Pauls and other work also. We have had minor problems with ours and i have posted the problems on here. We would buy another 1 but not from the dealer we bought this 1 thru. Paul and his crew are the only ones i will allow to work on ours, i trust him,his work is first rate, his prices are fair. Someone recently suggested that we should file a class action suit against Hehr because of their poor quality windows.

[JOHN EVANS]

John:

There have been two (2) programs. One program Hehr covered material, freight and a labor allowance. The current program they supply glass at cost, no freight, no labor.

I helped negotiate the first program not the second. The first program was routed through DRV, we paid the bill and charged back to Hehr. This can’t be done with the second program.





Best Regards,

Tom Peck

Customer Service Manager

260-562-1075

[porkchop]

Class action suits of most kind can have unintended results.

In this case Hehr makes the vast majority of rv windows in the states. Every owner of any rv could be included in a settlement. Hehr will settle out of court because of the cost of defending their engineering and manufacturing. It will probably cost them millions, but it will still be cheaper for them. Or they close thge doors and walk off.

The money obtained will first pay the lawyers expences. Then their fees. Then every rv owner with a Hehr product will split the remainder. A few dollars apiece at best. Plus when you join the law suit you automatically forfit any and all other claims.

At this point everyone would be far better off working the best deal they can and leave the lawyers sleep.

I really wonder what percentage of their products fail. I have personally owned 2 DRV units and 2 other brands. Put a lot of miles on them all and never had a failure. I may be just lucky. Don't know.
Any one have any figures?

[BlueSkyRanch]

The Hehr window problem is an industry wide problem that will continue unless every RV manufacturer steps up and says enough. There must be a manufacturer out there who will make a quality product.

[wingnut60]

porkchop,
you are correct in how most class-action suits end up--money for the lawyers, very little to complainants.
But I don't think the Hehr situation rises to the level that would attract a lawyer to go for it.

Now, if enough customers would demand a different mfg before buying, THAT would have an effect. Why do you think DRV changed to Michelin tires?

Does anyone know of other window mfgs for rvs? Have had at least 7 different rvs and can't recall any other name.

Joe

[Motor31]

DRV now installs tires with a 55 MPH speed limit rating?

[wingnut60]

I believe they are the Michelin X ATX Load Range J that I put on my unit 2 years ago. They are rated by Michelin at 62 mph. Your speeds may vary...

Joe

[BlueSkyRanch]

I have the "H" rated tires that are rated for 80mph. Very nice tire. With every RV I've owned except this one, I've upgraded the tires by 1 load rating with great results. My 2010 38TKSB3 is the first one that I feel confident in the load rating of the tires. DRV did a great job.

[mavis1957]

Porkchop - you questioned a percentage number and I assume you mean Hehr window owners overall However, I want to give you our percentage. We custom ordered our 2008 Carriage Carrilite and have 20 windows (4) are the overhead Arizona Room windows. We were the first year to receive the brand new (then) Hehr frameless dual pane windows. Our percentage fact is that at not quite 3 years later, 6 of our living area windows are VERY fogged up, ugly spotted with 2 that are in the beginning stages. Have you looked at Hehr's warranty for RV windows . . . 12 months from THEM to the INSTALLER which in this case would be Carriage, Inc. That is absolutely ridiculous! If they question the install by such a well known manufacturer, then perhaps they should have someone from their company onsite to do the installs on our rigs. Our problem began right after our two year warranty with Carriage. HAD it began before that warranty end, why should Carriage get stuck with the costs of replacement? Note, we have traveled less than 5,000 miles in 3 years. Shouldn't these windows stand up to normal use? Greg has built custom homes for many years with dual pane windows in Montana and they never had any such fogging problems. These are downright ugly and you know that we would not be able to sell our rig in this condition. A class action lawsuit is exactly what may be necessary. Look at the case of Carrier . . . they quit producing for the RV industry. Additionally, I do feel that Carriage and other manufacturers need to choose the components that go into these rigs a lot more carefully. For what it would cost us to replace all these windows without recourse, would have to seriously consider any legal remedies. The RV industry needs to know that a majority of the buyers are NOT the very wealthy buying a seldom used vacation rig. No . . . there are many of us that sold our homes and purchased our RV to live in full time through our retirement. We expect to have things that need to be fixed or replaced, but all the windows so soon after purchase? Thanks for listening guys, I tend to rattle on.

[mavis1957]

In reading my reply, I didn't address the PERCENTAGE aspect. 8 windows with fogging issues to date out of 20 total windows is 40 PERCENT that are malfunctioning.

[edt]

I would not have dual pane windows all seem to cloud up in a couple of years

[rotaxman]

I had my 06 from August of 05 until July of 2010 and never had any problem with fogging they didn't close worth a damn you had to go outside and push them in after you cranked them down as tight as you dared. Once they were pushed in they did seal pretty well.

They never had condensation on the inside.

On this junk 09 the two big windows in the dinning room slide condensate in the lower front corners. I contribute that to a defective seal between the panes. I think I will have to replace those two windows to correct the problem. I'm currently in the process of trying to make a trade so I'm not doing any other repairs to the trailer until the verdict is in on the trade.

I would never have another trailer that did not have thermo pane windows even though the quality is not what is should be. I feel that they do make the trailer a little more comfortable.

I would say that it is a personal preference. They work for some and for others they don't

As always good camping

Jerry

[porkchop]

Mavis-Did you research the class action problem any? Doubtful you could find a lawyer to take the case. No money for them.Even if you could-each rver would get about enough in the end to buy a bottle of glass cleaner. They are not going to replace windows in a class action suit. You could hire your own lawyer, pay him in advance and MAYBE get new windows. In about 10 years.
I have thermopane windows in my house also. No problem. But I've never hauled my house down the road behind a truck. Has Greg? When he was building custom homes, who did the window manuf issue the warranty to? Greg. And when the warrenty expired did he replace stuff for free? You admit the product was almost 2 years out of warranty. And even if they had failed before your Carriage warranty was up, your window warranty had already expired. One year from the manuf. Period.
"We could all demand the manuf use another supplier" Who would that be? Anyone know of another manuf of thermopane windows for rv's?
I know nothing about Carriage, however, I have pulled this DRV down the road for more than 80,000 miles in the last 3 years. It has 10 windows. Every one is still in perfect condition. I have had 3 other 5rs over the years and put a like amount of miles on them. All had Hehr windows. Not 1 failure. Ever.
I still question the over all failure rate, not just in a single unit. I'll bet it is pretty low.
Maybe you are doing something to cause the high failure rate? Just asking. Expecially since you only travel an average of 1600 miles per year.? Just something to consider.

[hitchup]

We had over 2 1/2 years in our ES without any failed windows. We're going on the same timeframe with the frameless on the 2009.

We've had residential Thermopane windows fail and fog up after a year. But it was during the early 80's.